I think the rules look potentially very promising. I'm not totally delighted about the use of some spec and some production components, but if they serve their intention then they are justified moves. As with any set of rules they will only be as good as the entry list, i just hope that the grids are decently subscribed.
"Moto2" 600cc Four-Stroke
- Thread starter alex29
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Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Well, well, well...
This new cadet class looks like the biggest mistake in motorcycling GP formulas ever made, to me. To have engines derived from stock (and this is what they are aiming at, with such specs) is simply ridiculous in GP.
These bikes will never handle like real GP bikes. Their weight distribution, constrained by the heavy stock-derived engines, will make them behave like handicapped superbikes. A shame.
Today's 250 are real, exacting, lean and mean GP machines. They are the real school. New generations of riders grown on these new 600cc contraptions will hardly develop their skills to the levels of the present generation. Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Kallio, Simoncelli, Bautista, Stoner are going to dominate MotoGP until they decide to retire.
The real solution would be to make all classes use the same basic cylinder-head unit, as it happened in the times of 2-strokers with the 1-cylinder 125, 2-cyl. 250, 4-cyl. 500. The 125cc cylinder-head unit was the foundation of all three classes. There was intrinsic economy in such a scheme.
To replicate that, with a 4-cylinders 800cc the cadet class should be 400cc twin-cyl, and the entry level class a single cyl. 200cc. No stupid restrictions on valve control or materials. This way, all manufacturers competing in MotoGP could easily develop twin-cyl. 400cc's and 200cc singles. Such engine kits could be fitted in the existing 250 and 125 frames, even... They could have sold 400cc and 200cc engine kits to private teams, in such a scenario...!
It would be easy, natural... apparently too simple and too good to be true. They have decided, instead, to give us this 'tuned-Hornet' class to replace 250cc.
BAH!
This new cadet class looks like the biggest mistake in motorcycling GP formulas ever made, to me. To have engines derived from stock (and this is what they are aiming at, with such specs) is simply ridiculous in GP.
These bikes will never handle like real GP bikes. Their weight distribution, constrained by the heavy stock-derived engines, will make them behave like handicapped superbikes. A shame.
Today's 250 are real, exacting, lean and mean GP machines. They are the real school. New generations of riders grown on these new 600cc contraptions will hardly develop their skills to the levels of the present generation. Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Kallio, Simoncelli, Bautista, Stoner are going to dominate MotoGP until they decide to retire.
The real solution would be to make all classes use the same basic cylinder-head unit, as it happened in the times of 2-strokers with the 1-cylinder 125, 2-cyl. 250, 4-cyl. 500. The 125cc cylinder-head unit was the foundation of all three classes. There was intrinsic economy in such a scheme.
To replicate that, with a 4-cylinders 800cc the cadet class should be 400cc twin-cyl, and the entry level class a single cyl. 200cc. No stupid restrictions on valve control or materials. This way, all manufacturers competing in MotoGP could easily develop twin-cyl. 400cc's and 200cc singles. Such engine kits could be fitted in the existing 250 and 125 frames, even... They could have sold 400cc and 200cc engine kits to private teams, in such a scenario...!
It would be easy, natural... apparently too simple and too good to be true. They have decided, instead, to give us this 'tuned-Hornet' class to replace 250cc.
BAH!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Dec 13 2008, 11:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, well, well...
This new cadet class looks like the biggest mistake in motorcycling GP formulas ever made, to me. To have engines derived from stock (and this is what they are aiming at, with such specs) is simply ridiculous in GP.
These bikes will never handle like real GP bikes. Their weight distribution, constrained by the heavy stock-derived engines, will make them behave like handicapped superbikes. A shame.
Today's 250 are real, exacting, lean and mean GP machines. They are the real school. New generations of riders grown on these new 600cc contraptions will hardly develop their skills to the levels of the present generation. Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Kallio, Simoncelli, Bautista, Stoner are going to dominate MotoGP until they decide to retire.
The real solution would be to make all classes use the same basic cylinder-head unit, as it happened in the times of 2-strokers with the 1-cylinder 125, 2-cyl. 250, 4-cyl. 500. The 125cc cylinder-head unit was the foundation of all three classes. There was intrinsic economy in such a scheme.
To replicate that, with a 4-cylinders 800cc the cadet class should be 400cc twin-cyl, and the entry level class a single cyl. 200cc. No stupid restrictions on valve control or materials. This way, all manufacturers competing in MotoGP could easily develop twin-cyl. 400cc's and 200cc singles. Such engine kits could be fitted in the existing 250 and 125 frames, even... They could have sold 400cc and 200cc engine kits to private teams, in such a scenario...!
It would be easy, natural... apparently too simple and too good to be true. They have decided, instead, to give us this 'tuned-Hornet' class to replace 250cc.
BAH!
Nice idea man but it would be unbelievably expensive compared to the proposed system, and would shut out anything but factory teams from notable success. The opposite of what they are trying to do.
Also, as far as i have read the rules don't state than an engine has to be production based. Do you know if hypothetically an engineering firm could design an engine specifically for the class if they wanted?
This new cadet class looks like the biggest mistake in motorcycling GP formulas ever made, to me. To have engines derived from stock (and this is what they are aiming at, with such specs) is simply ridiculous in GP.
These bikes will never handle like real GP bikes. Their weight distribution, constrained by the heavy stock-derived engines, will make them behave like handicapped superbikes. A shame.
Today's 250 are real, exacting, lean and mean GP machines. They are the real school. New generations of riders grown on these new 600cc contraptions will hardly develop their skills to the levels of the present generation. Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Kallio, Simoncelli, Bautista, Stoner are going to dominate MotoGP until they decide to retire.
The real solution would be to make all classes use the same basic cylinder-head unit, as it happened in the times of 2-strokers with the 1-cylinder 125, 2-cyl. 250, 4-cyl. 500. The 125cc cylinder-head unit was the foundation of all three classes. There was intrinsic economy in such a scheme.
To replicate that, with a 4-cylinders 800cc the cadet class should be 400cc twin-cyl, and the entry level class a single cyl. 200cc. No stupid restrictions on valve control or materials. This way, all manufacturers competing in MotoGP could easily develop twin-cyl. 400cc's and 200cc singles. Such engine kits could be fitted in the existing 250 and 125 frames, even... They could have sold 400cc and 200cc engine kits to private teams, in such a scenario...!
It would be easy, natural... apparently too simple and too good to be true. They have decided, instead, to give us this 'tuned-Hornet' class to replace 250cc.
BAH!
Nice idea man but it would be unbelievably expensive compared to the proposed system, and would shut out anything but factory teams from notable success. The opposite of what they are trying to do.
Also, as far as i have read the rules don't state than an engine has to be production based. Do you know if hypothetically an engineering firm could design an engine specifically for the class if they wanted?
What kind of name is "Moto2"?!
Bring back the 990s!
http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2008/Moto2+2...tions+announced
Bring back the 990s!
http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2008/Moto2+2...tions+announced
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Dec 15 2008, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nice idea man but it would be unbelievably expensive compared to the proposed system, and would shut out anything but factory teams from notable success. The opposite of what they are trying to do.
Also, as far as i have read the rules don't state than an engine has to be production based. Do you know if hypothetically an engineering firm could design an engine specifically for the class if they wanted?
Not so expensive because all manufacturers already competing in MotoGP could easily prepare engine kits using the 200cc cylinder-head unit (tuned in a different way) of their existing motogp engines, and sell the kits to private teams. Private teams never manufacture their own engines anyway.
If you read the new Moto2 specs, they have imposed a MINIMUM weight on the engine and ruled out the use of special alloys for pistons, valves etc--basically, they give specs of a stock 600cc engine. Reinforced by the special clause that any team can buy the race winning engine for just 20,000 Euros--a very clear way to ensure that only stock-derived engines are actually allowed.
NO kidding
Also, as far as i have read the rules don't state than an engine has to be production based. Do you know if hypothetically an engineering firm could design an engine specifically for the class if they wanted?
Not so expensive because all manufacturers already competing in MotoGP could easily prepare engine kits using the 200cc cylinder-head unit (tuned in a different way) of their existing motogp engines, and sell the kits to private teams. Private teams never manufacture their own engines anyway.
If you read the new Moto2 specs, they have imposed a MINIMUM weight on the engine and ruled out the use of special alloys for pistons, valves etc--basically, they give specs of a stock 600cc engine. Reinforced by the special clause that any team can buy the race winning engine for just 20,000 Euros--a very clear way to ensure that only stock-derived engines are actually allowed.
NO kidding
Joined Jun 2008
2K Posts | 6+
America
I would bet that within the next 10 or so years MOTO GP bikes will be engineless. Sounds messed up? Well if you think about it the technology is getting much closer to what the public expects out of the electric motor and battery technology. Plus you can thank the wussie tree huggers of the world who actually believe that there is a global warming problem. The whole carbon credit thing is going to get messy. I have even heard talk about other series looking to make moves in the near future to a green racing policy. SO here you go. Get ready my GP friends cause the viceral experience of the sound and implication of power will be no more in the future. I for one at this point am sickened by the things I am hearing. All because of a lie about global warming and the cronies who proport to make YOU believe it. Oh by the way F1 will be working towards a green policy very very soon. And if that is the pinnicle for car racing you can just imagine what we in the bike realm will be dealing with.
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Dec 15 2008, 10:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would bet that within the next 10 or so years MOTO GP bikes will be engineless. Sounds messed up? Well if you think about it the technology is getting much closer to what the public expects out of the electric motor and battery technology. Plus you can thank the wussie tree huggers of the world who actually believe that there is a global warming problem. The whole carbon credit thing is going to get messy. I have even heard talk about other series looking to make moves in the near future to a green racing policy. SO here you go. Get ready my GP friends cause the viceral experience of the sound and implication of power will be no more in the future. I for one at this point am sickened by the things I am hearing. All because of a lie about global warming and the cronies who proport to make YOU believe it. Oh by the way F1 will be working towards a green policy very very soon. And if that is the pinnicle for car racing you can just imagine what we in the bike realm will be dealing with.
I too would be very sad to see combustion engine racing disappear. But if you think that global warming is a myth then you are only fooling yourself. I studied climate change for a fair amount of time in college and we are in the middle of the most intense and rapid warming period in history. There have always been oscillations in warming and cooling, but never so much, so fast. Funny how this extreme rise coincides with the industrial revolution.
I too would be very sad to see combustion engine racing disappear. But if you think that global warming is a myth then you are only fooling yourself. I studied climate change for a fair amount of time in college and we are in the middle of the most intense and rapid warming period in history. There have always been oscillations in warming and cooling, but never so much, so fast. Funny how this extreme rise coincides with the industrial revolution.
Well well well my idea of converting MotoGP to ethanol doesn't sound too far fetched now does it? Alcohol fueled 800cc's would be great. And electric motors? Check out EESTOR in wikipedia and see the potential of supercapacitors. The electric race bike is only a short time away.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Dec 15 2008, 10:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I too would be very sad to see combustion engine racing disappear. But if you think that global warming is a myth then you are only fooling yourself. I studied climate change for a fair amount of time in college and we are in the middle of the most intense and rapid warming period in history. There have always been oscillations in warming and cooling, but never so much, so fast. Funny how this extreme rise coincides with the industrial revolution.
Global warming is true but whether or not it is anthropecentric is another question.
I don't think humanity is causing a majority of the warming trend. CO2 definitely warms the planet and humans have definitely added to the trace greenhouse gas.
The Earth appears to be entering the early stages of a polarity change. During polarity changes the Earth's magnetosphere is weaker than usual and additional solar radiation enters the earth's atmosphere. Right now the earth's magnetosphere is already approximately 10% weaker than it was in the past.
I think it's a good idea to cut greenhouse emissions, but there is mounting evidence to suggest it will do very little other than disrupt our way of life. Besides we need to be employing our resources to figure out how to survive the abnormally cool climates that follow global warming.
Global warming is true but whether or not it is anthropecentric is another question.
I don't think humanity is causing a majority of the warming trend. CO2 definitely warms the planet and humans have definitely added to the trace greenhouse gas.
The Earth appears to be entering the early stages of a polarity change. During polarity changes the Earth's magnetosphere is weaker than usual and additional solar radiation enters the earth's atmosphere. Right now the earth's magnetosphere is already approximately 10% weaker than it was in the past.
I think it's a good idea to cut greenhouse emissions, but there is mounting evidence to suggest it will do very little other than disrupt our way of life. Besides we need to be employing our resources to figure out how to survive the abnormally cool climates that follow global warming.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Guys,this is about selling bikes,nothing more,nothing less. 2 Smokes are dinosaur's and there is not a market for them.600 cc sport bikes are best selling sport segment. I am on record of not being a big 125 and 250 2 stroke fan so this doesnt bother me in the slightest.I actually like it for the simple reason that it wont keep the US kids shut out of GP.The skills will be different no doubt but i believe you will like the actual racing.
Joined Jul 2006
11K Posts | 291+
Texas
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Dec 16 2008, 08:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Guys,this is about selling bikes,nothing more,nothing less. 2 Smokes are dinosaur's and there is not a market for them.600 cc sport bikes are best selling sport segment. I am on record of not being a big 125 and 250 2 stroke fan so this doesnt bother me in the slightest.I actually like it for the simple reason that it wont keep the US kids shut out of GP.The skills will be different no doubt but i believe you will like the actual racing.
Yeah where do 800's come in then?...990 ftw
Yeah where do 800's come in then?...990 ftw
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Here is a very good informative article that says we just might see 250's and 600's racing side to side very soon.
http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/mot...-in-spain-2009/
http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/mot...-in-spain-2009/
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Dec 16 2008, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah where do 800's come in then?...990 ftw
I thought we were discussing the merits of 600's vs 250 2 smokes.
I thought we were discussing the merits of 600's vs 250 2 smokes.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Valencia (race record, rider/bike)
MotoGP 1´32.748 (Stoner/Ducati)
250GP 1´35.890 (Kallio/KTM)
CEV SS 1´37.430 (Rodriguez/Yamaha)
CEV Ex.1´35.562 (Noyes/Suzuki)
Jerez (race record, rider/bike)
MotoGP 1´40.116 (Pedrosa/Honda)
250GP 1´43.546 (Simoncelli/Gilera)
CEV SS 1´44.515 (Rodriguez/Yamaha)
CEV Ex. 1´42.752 (del Amor/Yamaha)
Ok,how much is a prototype suspension and 50 lbs worth when it come to lap times.I say they will be just as fast or even faster. On the times above,you have a 1 to a 1 1/2 second difference between CEV SS and 250 GP bikes.
MotoGP 1´32.748 (Stoner/Ducati)
250GP 1´35.890 (Kallio/KTM)
CEV SS 1´37.430 (Rodriguez/Yamaha)
CEV Ex.1´35.562 (Noyes/Suzuki)
Jerez (race record, rider/bike)
MotoGP 1´40.116 (Pedrosa/Honda)
250GP 1´43.546 (Simoncelli/Gilera)
CEV SS 1´44.515 (Rodriguez/Yamaha)
CEV Ex. 1´42.752 (del Amor/Yamaha)
Ok,how much is a prototype suspension and 50 lbs worth when it come to lap times.I say they will be just as fast or even faster. On the times above,you have a 1 to a 1 1/2 second difference between CEV SS and 250 GP bikes.
Joined Jul 2006
11K Posts | 291+
Texas
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Dec 16 2008, 09:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I thought we were discussing the merits of 600's vs 250 2 smokes.
No i meant i agree with you about 600's.... all the bikes should at least mimic whats on the street...top of the heep are the Litre bikes... they should go back to 990... 125's should go to 450's...
No i meant i agree with you about 600's.... all the bikes should at least mimic whats on the street...top of the heep are the Litre bikes... they should go back to 990... 125's should go to 450's...
Joined Jul 2006
11K Posts | 291+
Texas
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DRILL @ Dec 16 2008, 10:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whatever happens,roll on `09 MGP,SBK looks uber promising too.
SBK is gonna make GP look like steaming ....
SBK is gonna make GP look like steaming ....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Dec 16 2008, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>SBK is gonna make GP look like steaming ....
That was my first thought brother but if the young guns get going from the start in MGP then its going to be the best from both race series,still want them 990`s back though.
That was my first thought brother but if the young guns get going from the start in MGP then its going to be the best from both race series,still want them 990`s back though.
