Moto2 @ 125hp?

boring boring think i'm going to find something else to do on a race day.

2010 The Death of World Championship MOTORcycle Racing

Oh the times.Mike the Bike,Ago Reidy.Sheene.Roberts Freddie.Mick.Vale.Casey.Haystack
The classes 80,cc 350,cc Sidecars etc


Now we got MOTOGP

M otorbike's
O ver
T aking
O h

G od
P lease

hopefully one day

D irector's
O f
R acing
N ot
A chance

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

Edit: the race days,,geez what we miss

50cc 125cc 250cc 350cc 500cc

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pigeon @ Feb 24 2010, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>boring boring think i'm going to find something else to do on a race day.

2010 The Death of World Championship MOTORcycle Racing

Oh the times.Mike the Bike,Ago Reidy.Sheene.Roberts Freddie.Mick.Vale.Casey.Haystack
The classes 80,cc 350,cc Sidecars etc


Now we got MOTOGP

M otorbike's
O ver
T aking
O h

G od
P lease

hopefully one day

D irector's
O f
R acing
N ot
A chance

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

Well since I moved to US I've been pissed off about the lousy televising of MotoGP here - recorded and typically shown late on Sunday without the 250 (forget 125) races. But now that the 250's are gone & replaced with 125 bhp 600's I guess I won't mind not seeing them. There must be some reverse polish logic in there. Just have to hope that although Dorna is well on the way to f'ing up MotoGP in 2012 that they won't be as successful as with the ....-up with the 600's. My old street CBR 600 with mild tuning was dynoed at 115 back in 2007. WSBK is starting to look better & better.

Imo, this is a direct result of the new CRT rules.

Suppose Honda created a 600cc engine that could rev to 16,000rpm and last 3 races. Chances are, such an engine would feature technology that isn't really production relevant and much of the technology couldn't be used in WSS (exotic springs, even higher compression than WSS, cylinder treatments that are far better than production silicon carbide treatment). What would happen?

Well, if I were Tech 3, Gresini, or any other team contemplating the possibility of running as a CRT, I'd crack the engine open and look at the parts. What could be more useful to them than a roadmap provided by Honda that demonstrates how to build a spring-valve engine that produces 250hp/liter?

I think Honda were genuinely committed to building a world class race engine that would showcase their abilities to craft great engines, but when they realized that MotoGP would probably have CRT rules (maybe November or December of last year) they decided to let WSS be the flagship 600 series b/c they already dominate that class.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Feb 24 2010, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Honda were genuinely committed to building a world class race engine that would showcase their abilities to craft great engines, but when they realized that MotoGP would probably have CRT rules (maybe November or December of last year) they decided to let WSS be the flagship 600 series b/c they already dominate that class.



i think "used to dominate" would be more appropriate. IIRC crutchlow was on a R6 when he won in 2009. seems like the honda strategists have had a few poor years lately.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Feb 24 2010, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>

i think "used to dominate" would be more appropriate. IIRC crutchlow was on a R6 when he won in 2009. seems like the honda strategists have had a few poor years lately.

Honda have won 7 of the last 8 riders titles and 7 manufacturers championships in a row. The next closest manufacturer to Honda's 7 rider's titles and 7 manufacturers titles is Yamaha with 2 riders titles and 3 manufacturers titles.





Since WSS became a world championship. Honda was the strongest team prior to the world championship as well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cankles @ Feb 24 2010, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Then why did Honda bid to be the single engine supplier if they weren't at least going to provide a motor that would help the bikes at least match the 250's? The CRT isn't for Moto2, right?

This is what happens when you screw up and have a single engine supplier. They needed to have an open manufacturer series. It may be a little more expensive, but damn! 125hp?

I repeat 125hp? wtf?

Honda probably wanted to provide a really kick-... 600cc engine to showcase their technology. During the WSS season last year, rumors were circulating that Honda were playing with all kinds of technologies. The most notable technology was a new crankcase pump that was used during practice b/c it isn't a WSS-legal modification.

However, once Honda learned of the CRT rules, why would they supply the engine. CRT teams would open the engine up and say "oh, this is how you make a crankcase pump", "oh, this is the material you use to create valve-springs that can handle 16,000rpm", etc. etc. Honda would basically have been providing a free roadmap for CRT teams to be competitive.

Sure, lots of companies have that technology, but Honda would have been giving it to Moto2 teams at no additional marginal cost.

umm whats the prob with 125hp?


Stock Honda CBR600RR
Horsepower: 98.06 hp @ 13,600 rpm
Torque: 42.35 lbs.-ft. @ 11,300 rpm
Weight: 402.3 lbs w/fuel, 378.1 lbs w/o fuel

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Feb 24 2010, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Honda probably wanted to provide a really kick-... 600cc engine to showcase their technology. During the WSS season last year, rumors were circulating that Honda were playing with all kinds of technologies. The most notable technology was a new crankcase pump that was used during practice b/c it isn't a WSS-legal modification.

However, once Honda learned of the CRT rules, why would they supply the engine. CRT teams would open the engine up and say "oh, this is how you make a crankcase pump", "oh, this is the material you use to create valve-springs that can handle 16,000rpm", etc. etc. Honda would basically have been providing a free roadmap for CRT teams to be competitive.

Sure, lots of companies have that technology, but Honda would have been giving it to Moto2 teams at no additional marginal cost.

Well let's hope it's only ...... up for one season - open it up to multiple engine builders in 2011 and scrap the CRT crap

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Feb 24 2010, 09:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>However, once Honda learned of the CRT rules,

Surely that should read: "once Honda proposed the CRT rules..."?

btw advanced technology lets move backwards.not

when these do slower lap times on a circuit that run WSBK SSP as well

howz it going to look.?

for the premier league of proto racing

Sponsors run to the WSBK Series

Bah

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Feb 24 2010, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Surely that should read: "once Honda proposed the CRT rules..."?

Maybe.

I'm having trouble figuring out who really wants CRTs and what their motivation is.

Is it IRTA, Dorna, or MSMA? or some combination of the three?

Herve and company say that running satellite bikes is boring and it causes him to lose good engineering personnel. Ezpeleta says he doesn't want to pay for satellite bikes anymore. The MSMA probably aren't keen to lease prototype technology to private teams.

Maybe, they all want CRTs, but I think the technical rules were written by Dorna. Twice as many engines and 3L more fuel appears to be very pro-CRT at this point. The claiming prices haven't been released yet so we'll have to wait and see.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Feb 25 2010, 01:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm having trouble figuring out who really wants CRTs and what their motivation is.

Is it IRTA, Dorna, or MSMA? or some combination of the three?
Not IRTA. Dorna doesn't care, as long as they get more bikes on the grid. Dorna does want the teams to be able to use proddy engines, so teams can go racing relatively cheaply. The MSMA don't want any competition at all. After all, they need to get back some of the 50 million plus they pour into the series in marketing value, and you don't do that by touring around in mid-pack. Do you, Suzuki?

I think Ezpeleta is using the CRTs (or rather, the extra fuel and engine allowances) as a stick to beat the MSMA with. It's the MSMA who have been blocking the moves in the GP Commission.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Feb 25 2010, 01:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Herve and company say that running satellite bikes is boring and it causes him to lose good engineering personnel. Ezpeleta says he doesn't want to pay for satellite bikes anymore. The MSMA probably aren't keen to lease prototype technology to private teams.

Herve says running satellite bikes is boring, but he also says that in 2012, deo volante, he'll be running Yamaha satellite bikes. Herve wants to win (or at least do well) to make his sponsors happy. Make no mistake, the CRT bikes won't stand a chance.

Peter Clifford made an interesting point once: The reason they decided to build a V6 as the Blata WCM project was not because they thought they could beat Honda and the RC211V, but because it would have been cool and captured the fans' imagination. That's what they were planning to use as their marketing value, rather than results.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Feb 25 2010, 01:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe, they all want CRTs, but I think the technical rules were written by Dorna. Twice as many engines and 3L more fuel appears to be very pro-CRT at this point. The claiming prices haven't been released yet so we'll have to wait and see.

The MSMA writes the technical rules, Dorna's only interest is in a full(ish) grid. As I said, the CRT rules are a stick to beat the MSMA with, to get them back into line.

Bottom line is the series is in a quandary: it can't exist without the manufacturers, but the manufacturers' interests lie in excluding competition, and they make the rules to ensure that happens.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Feb 25 2010, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The MSMA writes the technical rules, Dorna's only interest is in a full(ish) grid. As I said, the CRT rules are a stick to beat the MSMA with, to get them back into line.

Bottom line is the series is in a quandary: it can't exist without the manufacturers, but the manufacturers' interests lie in excluding competition, and they make the rules to ensure that happens.

I agree. When I said Dorna were writing the technical regs, I meant they were writing the CRT regulations specifically. As of right now, those rules appear to be obscenely pro-CRT so I can only conclude what you have concluded--CRTs are a stick to beat the MSMA.

I also agree that it is probably a hollow threat, but I'm starting to wonder if Ezpeleta might actually follow through. As you've pointed out, Dorna would prefer for the teams to run prototype engines (probably best for marketing), but I think Ezpeleta has exhausted his patience with the MSMA. CVC sold the commercial rights to Bridgepoint Capital in July 2006 when the sport was at its peak. I'm sure the equity partners are lighting a fire underneath Ezpeleta to reduce costs and increase revenues by whatever means necessary. Eliminating 800cc satellite bikes must surely be the #1 priority? Even before the 81mm 1000cc prototype formula was announced, Dorna were scrambling for a way to get rid of satellite bikes (800cc engine leasing, 1000cc production engine proposal).

Though Dorna appears to be behind the CRTs almost exclusively. Herve has made quite a few remarks in favor of eliminating satellite bikes, and he was intentionally ambiguous about his future plans with Yamaha. I believe he said it depends on what displacement Yamaha choose. Herve is a shrewd businessman so he could be running smokescreen for Dorna to make the CRTs look like a viable alternative, but I think Herve has ambitions to make Tech 3 a KR-style team even if it means he using hotted-up production engines. He's already on Dorna charity. If CRT costs are low enough, he could possibly backmark his way to riches.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Feb 25 2010, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I also agree that it is probably a hollow threat, but I'm starting to wonder if Ezpeleta might actually follow through.

Someone who has worked with Ezpeleta in the past told me that Ezpeleta never threatens to do something he isn't prepared to follow through on. Ezpeleta will do these things (if he can), but he probably doesn't want to.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Feb 25 2010, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Though Dorna appears to be behind the CRTs almost exclusively. Herve has made quite a few remarks in favor of eliminating satellite bikes, and he was intentionally ambiguous about his future plans with Yamaha. I believe he said it depends on what displacement Yamaha choose. Herve is a shrewd businessman so he could be running smokescreen for Dorna to make the CRTs look like a viable alternative, but I think Herve has ambitions to make Tech 3 a KR-style team even if it means he using hotted-up production engines. He's already on Dorna charity. If CRT costs are low enough, he could possibly backmark his way to riches.

Herve has a duty to talk up the privateer possibilities, as IRTA's leading negotiator. However, he has said several times (usually in the middle of longer interviews so people don't notice so much) that he will first look to Yamaha and see what they are doing before making a decision on his own future. I think he'll run satellite bikes from Yamaha for as long as Yamaha will have him, as it gives him access not just to competitive machinery, but also to competitive riders. Yamaha owns Spies' slot in the Tech 3 team, and Spies wouldn't be there if Yamaha hadn't put him there.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Feb 25 2010, 02:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Someone who has worked with Ezpeleta in the past told me that Ezpeleta never threatens to do something he isn't prepared to follow through on. Ezpeleta will do these things (if he can), but he probably doesn't want to.

Herve has a duty to talk up the privateer possibilities, as IRTA's leading negotiator. However, he has said several times (usually in the middle of longer interviews so people don't notice so much) that he will first look to Yamaha and see what they are doing before making a decision on his own future. I think he'll run satellite bikes from Yamaha for as long as Yamaha will have him, as it gives him access not just to competitive machinery, but also to competitive riders. Yamaha owns Spies' slot in the Tech 3 team, and Spies wouldn't be there if Yamaha hadn't put him there.

I guess only one question remains: What are Dorna trying to get the MSMA to do?

If you take a composite of Dorna's remarks over the last 2 years, Dorna and the FIM want prototype satellite bikes to be sold to the privateers. If I'm Ezpeleta I want the manufacturers to produce two completely different engines like some of them used to do in the 2 stroke era. One engine will be the cutting edge prototype mill (NSR500) and another engine to be sold to the privateers (NS500, NSR500V). But in this day and age, the manufacturers even keep their WSBK parts under lock and key, so Ezpeleta is fighting an uphill battle.

I don't think Ezpeleta really cares what prototype displacement the manufacturers run, but I think the CRT regs are basically a demand from Ezpeleta that the manufacturers produce cheap 1000cc satellite bikes or production race-only equipment (like the Honda Moto2 engine). If they don't, Ezpeleta is going to give private teams 24L of fuel and twice as many engines. Who knows what will happen then?

I don't even think the MSMA know how they want MotoGP to fit into their business plan anymore.

What are the chance of the Flamini's going to court over the Moto 2 engine? It would appear that at only 125hp it would not have received much in the way of modification to make it more than just a modified production engine. Surely Dorna and Honda have to submit design information to the FIM that would then have to be submitted for evidence in any court case.

Could we see the moto 2 bikes sidelined whilst a court case ran its course?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Feb 26 2010, 12:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What are the chance of the Flamini's going to court over the Moto 2 engine?

Nope. I interviewed Vito Ippolito last week and asked him what the WSBK contract said. He said the Flamminis have the right to race the motorcycles the FIM homologates for WSBK. If the FIM don't homologate a bike, MotoGP could use it. So the Flamminis will bluster but not do anything. Especially if the Moto2 bikes don't match the WSS times at the same tracks.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Feb 26 2010, 05:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nope. I interviewed Vito Ippolito last week and asked him what the WSBK contract said. He said the Flamminis have the right to race the motorcycles the FIM homologates for WSBK. If the FIM don't homologate a bike, MotoGP could use it. So the Flamminis will bluster but not do anything. Especially if the Moto2 bikes don't match the WSS times at the same tracks.

That makes it pretty clear cut then regarding homologation. Does that just apply to whole bikes or to just engines as well?