Mind games or media hype?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Sep 30 2008, 05:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree that some form of pressure got to Stoner this year. But, once again, were the mistakes the result of mind games or at least the perception that there were mind games being played? If so, were they actually Rossi's doing? Or did the psychological stress come from the cult of personality that has been built for The Doctor?


IMO, Rossi did not get 'in Stoners head' nor did any 'pressure' from Rossi cause or contribute to any of Stoner's offs. Instead (and this is IMO) the only pressure applied to Stoner was from himself.

Stoner is a confident young motorcycle racer, very confident actually (as are all racers and athletes at this level). He had been beaten in a 'dog fight' which included some aspects that he felt endangered himself and/or were not within the 'spirit' (hardly a descriptive word but the best I could think of) of what he considered as racing fairness. Whether he was right or wrong in that thinking is personal opinion and perception, but he thought it.

IMO his off at Laguna was the result of 'racing' pressure as Stoner is a racer first and foremost and wants (and needed) to win. The off was not the result of 'Rossi' pressure although he was the contributor and cause of the 'racing pressure'.

Now go forward to the next few races. Stoner is peeved that he was beaten and probably how he was beaten, his ego has taken a hit (just as does/did Rossi's when beaten). So Stoner (as would most athletes that contain the innate 'mongrel' needed to succeed) goes on the attack.

He turns up and immediately goes all out cutting ridiculously fast times in practice and is trying even harder than he has before. Why? Because he wants to prove to all and sundry that he is the best and fastest.

Come race day all goes to plane, he shoots to the front and being the racer he is, he pushes. First he pushes hard, then all feels good so a little harder and so on, all the time to prove to himself that he is as good as he believes. Eventually and as we know he pushes to hard and learnt a lesson and unfortunately (for him) he then makes the same mistake next race.

But now some of the pressure is eased as he is no longer in with a realistic chance retaining the crown he had coveted. He still believes he is the best but he no longer has the 'burning need' to prove it to everyone else as the anger from Laguna has waned and the media focus has now shifted to celebrating Rossi's accomplishments. Stoner can now ride for enjoyment again and we have seen this in his recent performances.

I remember posting at the time of Laguna comments along the line that (IMO) if Stoner was 'phased' by the supposed Rossi mindgames then he would not have commented in the manner he did after the event, instead he would have meekly accepted what occurred as many had before him (that is, meekly accepted the defeat).

Stoner is strong of the mind as IMO is Lorenzo and I suspect that what has occurred in the latter half of this year has steeled both mentally for a fight next year. I only hope that the single tyre crap and any other yet to be announced changes do not adversely effect the field.





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Sep 29 2008, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think Laguna was some planned "smackdown," rather I saw it as a desperate attempt to stop the then-reemerging Stoner freight train. Think about it, Casey had just completed three 2007-esque weekends at Germany, Assen, and Donnington; add to that his Laguna weekend form in practice and qualifying and one can see why The Doctor rode with such abandon.

Pulling a Zanardi on two wheels is the definition of desperation in my book. It was greatness, a competitor throwing it all on the line, in a situation that could go either way. It worked and he came out looking like a genius, albeit a controversial one.

Then, as an added bonus, the mind games chorus kicked in and Casey was put on choke watch...I think you'll find it's the plan every weekend. Rossi knew he was better under braking, & knew he had to win, end of story. How planned it was is irrelevent & always has been, were Donington or Jerez '05 planned? No. Were they demoralising for competitors? Yes. However snotty you want to appear about it, it's the winning, not the words that make the difference.

Some of Stoner's post race comments could be taken as "making excuses" but I see them as his own form of "mind game" back at Rossi ie. (making Rossi wonder if he did beat Stoner outright, or whether Stoner had a legitimate excuse) either way, make Rossi wonder.
Rossi definitely called Stoner out at Laguna but, imagine how much of a 'desperate tosser' he would have looked if he had of collected Stoner at the infamous corkscrew incident.
Rossi blinded us with his awsomeness, & Stoner learnt a little along the way!

Lots of good posts here on both sides.
To me it's one major factor forgotten. Let's say Rossi got into Stoners head, there is still the question to what degree and with what result. I agree with gaz that this is more about his "racing pressure" than someone getting to you. We've seen the same thing with Rossi even this year at assen. It's in their personality and it's not a flaw, it's one of the major factors that make them champions, this is the "Will to win" and the effect is a crash or two unless you have all bases covered. In addition Stoner have the need to dominate. Question is if the combination of a faster Yamaha and the LC incident made stoner feel this even stronger. 1 sec was not enough, 3 sec was not enough, he felt he had to push and with less of an advantage in speed he pushed it to hard before he saw any gains on the time sheet.
I think the events, media, improved yamaha and Rossi all together may have enhanced his "need for speed", and by that pushed him over the (riding)edge.
We've discussed his need to dominate before and that in it self is the major problem (but maybe also the reason he was the only one to figure out the Ducati). The mind games and media just feed on it.
At the same time I'm totally convinced that no mind games could have gotten to stoner last year. He was comfortably the fastest and asjusted his speed according to his competitors.

[quote name='Babelfish' date='Sep 30 2008, 12:04 PM' post='156973']
1 sec was not enough, 3 sec was not enough,

And then you have poor old Pedrosa who wasn't comfortable with 7 seconds in 7 laps.

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^

...What now Curve?!...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (39flat @ Sep 30 2008, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 30 2008, 12:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
1 sec was not enough, 3 sec was not enough,
And then you have poor old Pedrosa who wasn't comfortable with 7 seconds in 7 laps.


allthough a lead of a few seconds tends to mean less in the wet.

I think the case of Stoner and the perceived effect of any media bias /mind games is different to that of Biaggi or Gibernau, only sete had any kind of run of beating Valentino (Le Mans Sachsenring Phakisa) whereas Biaggi had only the odd victory (and i cant remember one straight out fight been won by Max).Casey comprehensively beat Valentino last year AND beat him in a straight out fight at catalunya which youd never have previously put your money on Rossi losing even with a sprung valve Yamaha at what is by most accounts a BHP track.
However whilst valentino was smiling and congratulating Casey(this in itself could be a sort of mind game making caseys achievement seem less significant becaues whenever he was congratulating him he'd always mention the traction control or the straight line speed of the Ducati,the growing influenceof electronics etc helping casey) Meanwhile he was observing him out on the track thinking of ways to defeat him this season looking at any advantages of the Bridgestones etc.He got the bike/tyre package he needed setup and sorted at China but didnt come up with a way to pressure him and unnerve him until Laguna seca and in doing so ended Caseys run of victorys (a fair blow to Stoner id say) .However Caseys been injured and one thing and another so i dont think well see if vale can make casey his ..... in the same way as Sete or Max or if casey will come back stronger until next year now... i cant wait

When a guy has alot of world titles, you respect him more... sometimes too much and then the want to beat him is very high and mistakes can be made.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#46 @ Sep 30 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> ...What now Curve?!...

it's the Hypno Toad...he was hired by Rossi this year