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Mind games or media hype?

Joined Mar 2006
1K Posts | 71+
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We're all familiar with the psychological aspect of Rossi's success. He supposedly got in the heads of Biaggi, Gibernau, and now, possibly, Stoner. However, is it Rossi himself who breaks these guys down, or is it the media scrutiny?

If the challenger is put under the microscope, expected to fold under some mind-bending exercise from The Doctor, does that make things more difficult? Who is examined more closely for signs of psychological fatigue? Who is expected to fail? Who has to deal with more pressure from onlookers? (albeit, high expectations for Rossi can't be comforting either).

So, my question is: Does Valentino really get into other riders' heads? Or is it all a creation of the media and fans?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Sep 29 2008, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>We're all familiar with the psychological aspect of Rossi's success. He supposedly got in the heads of Biaggi, Gibernau, and now, possibly, Stoner. However, is it Rossi himself who breaks these guys down, or is it the media scrutiny?

If the challenger is put under the microscope, expected to fold under some mind-bending exercise from The Doctor, does that make things more difficult? Who is examined more closely for signs of psychological fatigue? Who is expected to fail? Who has to deal with more pressure from onlookers? (albeit, high expectations for Rossi can't be comforting either).

So, my question is: Does Valentino really get into other riders' heads? Or is it all a creation of the media and fans?

interesting, could get a good debate over this.

but for me, it doesn't really matter if it's valentino or the media. coz the real problem starts when these riders lets the pressure get into them. no matter how much valentino or the media plays with their heads, if they won't succumb, nothing happens.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ Sep 28 2008, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>interesting, could get a good debate over this.

but for me, it doesn't really matter if it's valentino or the media. coz the real problem starts when these riders lets the pressure get into them. no matter how much valentino or the media plays with their heads, if they won't succumb, nothing happens.

True, but this is a discussion of fairness and the cards each competitor is dealt. Nicky was lucky and Casey had the best bike/tires; however, in the form of media and fan scrutiny, does The Doctor possess an "unfair advantage" that has been wrongly identified as his own personal force?

Now, before this gets ugly, let me say that I think Rossi is the best of his generation and one of the all-time greatest riders.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Sep 29 2008, 05:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>We're all familiar with the psychological aspect of Rossi's success. He supposedly got in the heads of Biaggi, Gibernau, and now, possibly, Stoner. However, is it Rossi himself who breaks these guys down, or is it the media scrutiny?

If the challenger is put under the microscope, expected to fold under some mind-bending exercise from The Doctor, does that make things more difficult? Who is examined more closely for signs of psychological fatigue? Who is expected to fail? Who has to deal with more pressure from onlookers? (albeit, high expectations for Rossi can't be comforting either).

So, my question is: Does Valentino really get into other riders' heads? Or is it all a creation of the media and fans?
First thing I think Valentino seem very easygoing,funny and all that but he is dead serious about racing and all that is connected to making results.
I think he is very aware of that he can get into some riders heads and is ofcourse using it.
I bet even every little comment he makes on raceweekends is thought out.To have the proper effect.
Also on the track.When he is trying to pass a rider and making a misstake doing it ,he will try it again on the next lap on the same spot to prove that when you are in front there are no safe parts,i can pass you anywhere.
Or in racing also ,if there is a place or a turn known to be difficult or what ever ,he will make a pass there.Like the cork screw in LC for example,so the guy in front is supposed to think that he isn't safe anywhere.
I think he is aware of how the media is going to react so he is using that too.So the media isn't helping his competition.
It may sound like i hate Valentino but i don't.I think he is smart as hell.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Sep 29 2008, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>True, but this is a discussion of fairness and the cards each competitor is dealt. Nicky was lucky and Casey had the best bike/tires; however, in the form of media and fan scrutiny, does The Doctor possess an "unfair advantage" that has been wrongly identified as his own personal force?

good point. though i wouldn't say unfair. rossi has his share of detractors/hater. more so during the past two years. looking at it, the system treats rossi as it treats the rest of the grid.

fans of X rider applauds his success
detractors of the said rider says it's all down to ____, ____, ____, etc.
media is where the money's at. they could twist something to spice things if it would benefit them.


rossi fans have an advantage in numbers, but if you see the pattern, it's all the same.
 
When I say "unfair advantage," I'm just quoting a popular phrase. I'm not trying to take anything away from Valentino.

Stoner's advantages have been analyzed to death (body weight, horsepower, rubber), yet Rossi's legendary psychological power seems to be taken for granted. If Casey's spirit has indeed been broken, did The Doctor do it? Or is it the doing of the journalists, the TV announcers, the bench racers, the forum experts, the booing fans at Donnington?

For example, how would Rossi hold up if he were widely expected to crack under some legendary mental attack from another rider?

Is it easier to concentrate when you're not being scrutinized for weakness? When the back of your mind is devoid of annoying suggestions that you are weaker? (once again, on the other hand, Rossi has lofty standards to meet).
 
To be totally unaffected by the fan or media reports you would have to be made of stone. Thus to some extent the riders are affected, some more than others.

The fans are fed by the media who’s only concern is money. More often than not the “successful” journalist is the creative one that makes a story out of innocent remarks/comments. I am amazed at some of the headlines that they use on interviews that I have watched and even more amazed at how they interpret them sometimes. They have no scruples and will jump on anything that can hype up a situation. In MGP there’s a lot going on and more often than not there is always a story and they will play to the whims of any fan base.

Rossi off track is nice to everyone but on track he certainly seems to try and intimidate his rivals. I think he had a degree of success in the past, although Jibbers and Max will deny this, I sure.

Is he succeeding with Stoner? Debatable, but its nothing Stoner can’t turn around if he is.

Has Rossi got an advantage? I don’t think so. He will use the media to his advantage, the same as all the other riders can do. He may have learnt this quicker than the other riders so far. Is it fair? Hey it comes with the territory.

Are media fair? No ways, they will crucify anyone.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Sep 29 2008, 07:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When I say "unfair advantage," I'm just quoting a popular phrase. I'm not trying to take anything away from Valentino.

Stoner's advantages have been analyzed to death (body weight, horsepower, rubber), yet Rossi's legendary psychological power seems to be taken for granted. If Casey's spirit has indeed been broken, did The Doctor do it?

I find Anders description very good. Rossi fight the psykological battle as much on the track as off. What ever he says means absolutly nothing unless he can back it up on the track. This years crashes from stoner would not have happeend with the bikes from '07. Back then he had the pace to pull away from Rossi or the power to pass and secure a victory, now he doesn't. Discovering that was by far the most important psykological blow to Stoner. And this is also Rossi's strongest psykological card. To prove that he can be faster or even better, win even if his not faster. Both attack the core of any racers confidence, as they all belive they are or can be the best of all.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goldwing @ Sep 29 2008, 08:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To be totally unaffected by the fan or media reports you would have to be made of stone. Thus to some extent the riders are affected, some more than others.

The fans are fed by the media who’s only concern is money. More often than not the “successful” journalist is the creative one that makes a story out of innocent remarks/comments. I am amazed at some of the headlines that they use on interviews that I have watched and even more amazed at how they interpret them sometimes. They have no scruples and will jump on anything that can hype up a situation. In MGP there’s a lot going on and more often than not there is always a story and they will play to the whims of any fan base.

Rossi off track is nice to everyone but on track he certainly seems to try and intimidate his rivals. I think he had a degree of success in the past, although Jibbers and Max will deny this, I sure.

Is he succeeding with Stoner? Debatable, but its nothing Stoner can’t turn around if he is.

Has Rossi got an advantage? I don’t think so. He will use the media to his advantage, the same as all the other riders can do. He may have learnt this quicker than the other riders so far. Is it fair? Hey it comes with the territory.

Are media fair? No ways, they will crucify anyone.

+1
Good post gold wing.
As you said, media will crucify anyone, including Rossi. If the smell blood the hunt is on.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Sep 29 2008, 05:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When I say "unfair advantage," I'm just quoting a popular phrase. I'm not trying to take anything away from Valentino.

Stoner's advantages have been analyzed to death (body weight, horsepower, rubber), yet Rossi's legendary psychological power seems to be taken for granted. If Casey's spirit has indeed been broken, did The Doctor do it? Or is it the doing of the journalists, the TV announcers, the bench racers, the forum experts, the booing fans at Donnington?

For example, how would Rossi hold up if he were widely expected to crack under some legendary mental attack from another rider?

Is it easier to concentrate when you're not being scrutinized for weakness? When the back of your mind is devoid of annoying suggestions that you are weaker? (once again, on the other hand, Rossi has lofty standards to meet).
I am confident that stoner is tough enough to come back at rossi next year, regardless of jedi mind tricks, media scrutiny or whatever. Despite the results I think he has ridden much smarter in the last 2 races which I was not sure he was ever going to do. There is obviously absolutely no point in trying to intimidate rossi by practice performances, and it would have been senseless to continue his win it or bin it strategy in an injured state with the championship well and truly gone.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Sep 29 2008, 06:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am confident that stoner is tough enough to come back at rossi next year, regardless of jedi mind tricks, media scrutiny or whatever. Despite the results I think he has ridden much smarter in the last 2 races which I was not sure he was ever going to do. There is obviously absolutely no point in trying to intimidate rossi by practice performances, and it would have been senseless to continue his win it or bin it strategy in an injured state with the championship well and truly gone.
I'm also confident that Stoner will find HIS way of doing a successful come back.He said after this race that he is aware of that his crashing from the lead was decisive of the outcome this year.I'm sure he is in reflection of Laguna Seca is going to learn from that too.Rossi has once again raised the bar of commitment needed to be champion and i think Stoner is very aware of that.
 
Shupe-dupe the basic debatable point of your OP was "So, my question is: Does Valentino really get into other riders' heads? Or is it all a creation of the media and fans?"

There is no static answer to your poser. When Biaggi failed to perform consistently equal to Rossi, which many expected he would/could, in their early careers it took several events (but most notably 2001 Suzuka - the Rossi re-pass after Biaggi ran him wide and the subsequent finger well in full throttle 45° cornering mode) for the cognoscenti and media to start calling the phenomenon "Rossi getting into Biaggi's head."

Then when Gibby began to falter at key moments in an otherwise impressive career, the cries of psychological and physical intimidation (Jerez 2005) came quicker because of Biaggi's demise and ultimate retirement.

By 2008 the legend of Rossi has bloated and transmorphed to a media and fan base of whom half probably never saw Rossi race a 250 yet alone a 125. Stoner has a couple of tumbles (which he was due for the way he rides and the way that Duc bucks IMHO) recently, and whoa - its the curse of the Doctor, ooh the pressure he exerts.

I don't how much Rossi gets into other rider's heads or how much is their own character flaws but let's at least give Casey the two or three seasons that Biaggi and Gibby got. The kid can still make a great career and I do not believe that this season is anywhere near enough to put him in the same (sane?) boat as the other two.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 29 2008, 08:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I find Anders description very good. Rossi fight the psykological battle as much on the track as off. What ever he says means absolutly nothing unless he can back it up on the track. This years crashes from stoner would not have happeend with the bikes from '07. Back then he had the pace to pull away from Rossi or the power to pass and secure a victory, now he doesn't. Discovering that was by far the most important psykological blow to Stoner. And this is also Rossi's strongest psykological card. To prove that he can be faster or even better, win even if his not faster. Both attack the core of any racers confidence, as they all belive they are or can be the best of all.

Yes. It is on the track that things are decided. There, riders DO know the real value of each other. They will never admit in public that another rider is stronger than (or as strong as) themselves, but deep down they DO know whatever is the truth.

The media... they are just plain cruel. Osannah to the winners of the moment, while massacring the losers. When luck turns things upside down, they just reverse the roles
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Rossi has had all of the media against him last year, especially in Italy with the tax problem and all. Also at the beginning of this season the "prophets" were all against him describing his inevitable decline and the rising of a new generation and blah blah.
<


Such combination of real problems and media flak would have downed many or most people, but Rossi actually surivived and became stronger, more mature. He now says that learning to lose made him a better person and a stronger rider. +1
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It will be Stoner's turn now, all vultures are already busy dissecting him... I wish him the best, to be able to survive the hard times and become even stronger.
 
I'm with Jarno & Babel, his strength is not in head games or media manipulation, but in the violent smackdowns like Laguna.
 
Stoner might be a bit down now, but gotta remember he's injured. A true racer like him and Vale hate this, as the one thing they want (if they can't win) is to give EVERYTHING on the track. He is not so able to do this now. I think he'll be just fine next season after an operation and a rest. And this coming from a staunch Rossi fan. CS is the strongest rival our man's had...even Vale admits it.

As for The Doctor's mind games or media influence question. Perhaps a bit of both. Any rider getting into confrontation with no. 46 is unwise as he can never win the popularity contest with Rossi. Casey seemed to learn this earlier in year when he flew off the handle in parc ferme in Laguna, then burried the hatchet with VR next race. He might have realised he was a bit over the top with his postrace reaction, but also must have seen he was getting vilified for his outbursts.

I don't think Casey is really one to get affected as much as Biaggi and Gibbers. Max was a vain attention loving prick, who I think never learnt to deal with being in Rossi's shadow. Haven't heard many riders extoling his virtues in WSBK either. He must be a sour little ....... now, bumming around in WSBK, even if he does challenge for and win the odd race while Rossi hits 8. Gibbers was a different kettle of fish, not so vain and admiration loving, but perhaps a little bit too fragile mentally. Fundamentally though I don't believe they were as good on a motorbike as Casey. I may get proven wrong if this Gib Ducati rumour is true!

Peace out, and I can't wait to see Nicky on the Duc, and Dovi on an HRC bike. Hopefully Dovi can outperform Dani many many times. Pedrobot sucks so much .... he's seen more Jap's eye than a Tokyo optician!
 
I should have clarified earlier that I do NOT believe Casey is "broken." This topic was inspired by race commentary, which suggested Stoner had fallen victim to Rossi voodoo like Biaggi and Gibernau supposedly did.

I'm sure Rossi doesn't mind having this mind-bender legend in his corner, but I'm not convinced that it's all him.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Sep 28 2008, 10:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>We're all familiar with the psychological aspect of Rossi's success. He supposedly got in the heads of Biaggi, Gibernau, and now, possibly, Stoner.

No "possibly" about it brother...did you not watch the last 5 races?
<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goatboy @ Sep 29 2008, 02:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm with Jarno & Babel, his strength is not in head games or media manipulation, but in the violent smackdowns like Laguna.

I don't think Laguna was some planned "smackdown," rather I saw it as a desperate attempt to stop the then-reemerging Stoner freight train. Think about it, Casey had just completed three 2007-esque weekends at Germany, Assen, and Donnington; add to that his Laguna weekend form in practice and qualifying and one can see why The Doctor rode with such abandon.

Pulling a Zanardi on two wheels is the definition of desperation in my book. It was greatness, a competitor throwing it all on the line, in a situation that could go either way. It worked and he came out looking like a genius, albeit a controversial one.

Then, as an added bonus, the mind games chorus kicked in and Casey was put on choke watch...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Sep 29 2008, 05:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, my question is: Does Valentino really get into other riders' heads? Or is it all a creation of the media and fans?

Vale's intelligence/skills in communication are the source of the popularity and media hype, but this is only achievable when backed up with riding of the higest level. Rossi is the best at both, the media's actions are pretty unsurprising. Sucks to be anyone else
 
Rossi is great at the mind games on the track.
He is very good with the mind games off the track.

The media does the rest.

Biaggi - I love him as a racer. But Biaggi never got over the fact that Rossi was just plain as good or better, more talented, charismatic, likeable etc.
Bottom line - Biaggi got in his own way and Rossi was intelligent enough to see that Biaggi would self destruct.

Gibbers. I believe that Gibernau was as fast as Rossi on any given day. Gibernau's ego, like Biaggi, was his down fall. Rossi capitalized on Gibernau's huge ego and crushed him, bullyied him, etc. Gibernau never recovered.


Now.. here we go. Everyone is debating whether or not Rossi got into Stoner's head. Think about it. Rossi has exploited each of his rivals huge egos to his advantage and their down fall.

Stoner - all last year he wanted, needed, desperately sought validation for his achievements. The media didn't give him credit for taking it to Rossi, The media didn't acknowledge his talent, his skills. For him he had to prove to himself and the world that it was not the bike, or the tyres but him.

Rossi exploited Stoner's need. The seeds were planted last year and harversted this year to Stoner's dismay.

Is it Rossi or is it the media?

It is Rossi.
Rossi uses everything at his disposal to effect the circumstances for his success.
That is his genius (combined with the fact that he can ride like noone else).

I was not a believer but now I am.