Might as well call it WSB!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jan 14 2009, 11:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>great post and you make some great points.

i say this with respect povol as ive grown to like you but i take it from that "kill as many of the enemy" statement that you yourself have never been a soldier ? maybe you have ? but when i served you were trained to do a job and be professional about it. killing as many people/enemy (isreail cant tell the differance) is not how a proffesonal soldier would act. You should not send gunships, tanks ,jet fighter's ect into a country blowing the .... out of everything because some terrorist who shot a fire cracker over there fence may still be there.
The problem with kiling people is that it is wrong and sucks if you have to do it. I don't think that the jews and muslims fancy going to war, but they don't fancy peace either. How many centuries do they have to fight over that bit of land? ....... stupid!!!! THey all should have treated it like a museum in a sence where all can enjoy it if they can't figure out how to use it as a worship site. I am tired of having their social groups inflict thier issues upon our country even though they are supposed to be our allies. This is a problem that they need to fight out and leave the U.S. and Russia out of it. Sometimes a virus gets so bad that the only way to totally get rid of it is to kill the hosts. Those ...... people don't care or give a .... about you and I and our motogp or whatever. So if they are gone the world will be a better place. Then when they are gone we can erect a new gP track. Personally I would love for clearer heads to prevail in this matter but again how many centuries has it been? Far to many for any of us to fight their battles of give them the means to do so. Let them live or die by their own accord now. IF God is on one specific side then we can find out who was right when the winner is left standing. Sorry if you think I am offensive but I care very little about their ........ when I have kids that require all of my attention. My friends and family and my country mean everything to me. Then somewhere in all that is MOTO GP as well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jan 14 2009, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The problem with kiling people is that it is wrong and sucks if you have to do it. I don't think that the jews and muslims fancy going to war, but they don't fancy peace either. How many centuries do they have to fight over that bit of land? ....... stupid!!!! THey all should have treated it like a museum in a sence where all can enjoy it if they can't figure out how to use it as a worship site. I am tired of having their social groups inflict thier issues upon our country even though they are supposed to be our allies. This is a problem that they need to fight out and leave the U.S. and Russia out of it. Sometimes a virus gets so bad that the only way to totally get rid of it is to kill the hosts. Those ...... people don't care or give a .... about you and I and our motogp or whatever. So if they are gone the world will be a better place. Then when they are gone we can erect a new gP track. Personally I would love for clearer heads to prevail in this matter but again how many centuries has it been? Far to many for any of us to fight their battles of give them the means to do so. Let them live or die by their own accord now. IF God is on one specific side then we can find out who was right when the winner is left standing. Sorry if you think I am offensive but I care very little about their ........ when I have kids that require all of my attention. My friends and family and my country mean everything to me. Then somewhere in all that is MOTO GP as well.
thats a couple of posts now that you have said this. who do you think are supplying isreal the gunships ? yes i agree the us russia britain who ever should keep out of it by not supplying the weapon's of war to them and making .... load of money out of it !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jan 14 2009, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>thats a couple of posts now that you have said this. who do you think are supplying isreal the gunships ? yes i agree the us russia britain who ever should keep out of it by not supplying the weapon's of war to them and making .... load of money out of it !
NO .... the U.S. is supplying them with goods. No .... Russia is supplying the other groups via IRan. A .... load of money being made is doubtful at this point. I just am saying there isn't going to be a peaceful situation ever in that region because of their fundamental differences. Plus each side thinks they are the owners of the land and more specificly Jeruselem.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 14 2009, 10:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Povol and Rockgod, you are the types that would condemn the terrorist attacks in this country right? Me too. But, the real question is, would you two be able to link such events to grievances that people in far away lands have with the way the US meddles and effects their lives? Yes, even to the point of exploiting business and political underdealings and endeavors that actually cause people suffering and death. Perhaps you wouldn't know since we have been on the recieving end of western interest. But you might see the world different if your town's resources were being exploited, land taken away, and political puppets propped up that were inflicting you harm. Would you be able to understand that some of these people we label terrorist (and with good reason) cannot fight conventional? So then if your were able to make this connection (which I doubt you would) then how is what Israel doing any different? Sure, like you said, they have a grievance with the Palestinians. And sure some of those Palestinians have their own grievance and have acted like terrorists. But it sure doesn't seem like you are willing to call the routing of innocent life on the Palestinian side tantamount to state sponsored terrorism (condoned and accepted by western powers).

To say they "elected" these leaders is like saying the leaders in ...... African countries with farce elections like Kenya, Sudan, etc were also "elected". They are no more "elected" than Saddam was "elected" in Iraq before. Oh, and Povol, to say the point of war is to kill as many as the enemy as possible really leaves me speechless to respond. I suppose, had you been a German, perceiving the Jews to be your "enemy" is would have been within your reasoning to exterminate.




Curve, to go along with your analogy. Yeah, if the guy throws rocks (which are what the home made rockets are which literally bounce off the roofs of houses) can be described compared to gun ships. Then would you go to that neighbor's house with an automatic 50 caliber tommy gun spitting rounds form wall to wall? Like you said, you would punch him in the mouth while shoving his wife and kid. That does sound reasonable. What does NOT sound reasonable is if you got a rock thrown at you and your reaction then was to put up cage around the house, tell the kids and wife to flee (where to), then go in with a machine gun shooting up the place. Comprende?

As we disagree in so much around MotoGP it's kind of surprising how close we see the situation in the middle east.

Here's another angle:
Right now the biggest cinema success ever up here is rolling and it is a true and realistic storry about a few young men starting out as little more than street thugs that end up as the worst terrorists this country has ever seen. They blew up houses, bridges, boats, amunition storages shot down people on the street and with it killed a few inocent bystanders. They were hiding among civilians, often at the cost of harsh punishment on those helping them or even randomly picked inocents that might have helped them. They refused to stand up and fight in the open for what they belived in, like real men. The strange thing is that at the same time they were considered the bigest heros of their time. That was about 70 years ago, and they are still being celebrated as heros by an overwhelming majority of the people of this nation.
Makes you wonder why so few see the paralells in other parts of the world today

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jan 15 2009, 12:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>NO .... the U.S. is supplying them with goods. No .... Russia is supplying the other groups via IRan.
I had no idea russia exprted fire crackers, I would have thought that was china's domain.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jan 15 2009, 12:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I had no idea russia exprted fire crackers, I would have thought that was china's domain.

The funny thing is that people are afraid of each other for the most part. THen you add their culture that may be forign to you and the fear grows. Then religion comes into play and that care really send you off the deep end if you have a specific way of religion or worship. Now if everyone could find a hobby like MOTO GP or whatever things wouldn't be so bad. But you have those who are so narrow minded that their religion turns them into fanatical morons that for whatever reason want to kill everyone that isn't part of their religion or group. Look the world is a ...... up place. We are the ones to help give it balance. At least we can discuss and call each other names and give each other .... but at the end of the day we can't wait to talk to each other about something such as GP. How sad it is these days. We may not have many left if you BELIEVE teh end times scenario or the 2012 thing. Man I hope Hayden does well this year it could be all of our last.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 14 2009, 04:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh funny one. Tell me the meaning of this one:

God's order to the Israelites found in 1 Samuel 15:3

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.

Still feel like defending the Good Book?

Yes. Those passages are in the Tanakh.

Jesus was crucified by the Romans at the request of his own people. Obviously, he had to do something pretty severe for the Jewish leadership to ask for his crucifixion.

The man claimed to be God, yet a vast majority of the things he said were contradictory to or a reinterpretation of what was understood about the Tanakh. You can't record the rebuttals and corrections without including the original garbage.

A man who claimed to be God said things contradictory to what the Jews knew about God. Why do you think he said "whosoever believeth in me"?

Don't trouble yourself with the Old Testament. If it isn't verified in the Gospel, leave it alone. I don't think genocide was ever verified as one of God's commandments. In fact, I believe 1 of the Ten Commandments says "Thou shalt not murder". So genocide is not allowable under the Ten Commandments or the Gospel.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jan 14 2009, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As we disagree in so much around MotoGP it's kind of surprising how close we see the situation in the middle east.

We agree more than you think. The major disagreement we have in GP is that I'm a dedicated Hayden fan and you are a dedicated Rossi apologist. I admit we are both bias, the thing is I'm just right.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jan 15 2009, 07:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Look if you can't get along and send em to their room to think about it you must take away their toys. If you can't do that then what? Do you think for a second a palestinian gives a .... about anyone else other than their own? Same with the jews. They have a sence that they are the chosen people as it says in the bible. So that is why I say ok then all you fuckers line up and here are your pistolas. Shoot til your tired. Leave us good people to our MOTO GP and the fun we all crave and could give a .... how and when you worship GOD or whomever you feel represents god. It is time to let this .... come to a head without the U.S. and RUSSIA in the mix. But that ain't gonna happen. So get prepared for the first nuclear war once Iran gets their .... together and say .... everyone. THey care the less of everone. SO I sound harsh, curve sounds harsh? I like my life and care for my children and friends. SO when I feel that these ........ are going to .... .... up the way they want to. KILL THEM ALL AND WIPE EM OUT. Oh one other thing. They teach their kids that to die they way they tell them to is the greatest thing one can do. YEAH ok that is rational thinking. If they continue on that path then there won't be any of them left to deal with anyway. SO what are you going to do teach them differently? Change their mindset? YEah OK BUDDY!!!! I wish you could but there is no way that anyone has ever proposed to do. THey threaten all of our ways of life and I don't sit for no one. THey want to die so bad well then let GOD sort em out if they don't value the life they were given. SHame cause they could use some of that money to support Kawasaki.
Paragraphs. Use them.
Books. Read them.
An education. Get one.

There are good people in the world, and there are bad people in the world.
Good Jews, bad Jews.
Good Palestinians, bad Palestinaians.
Good Americans, and George W

An eye for an eye, does not fix anything.

Here is the NUTS ROADMAP.
The bad ... Paestinians need to stop randomly firing rockets into Isreal, so the Israelis don't retaliate and kill innocent (and probably good) Palestinians.
The Israelis need to get over the past, let the (mostly good) Palestinians live in peace in a sanctioned Palestinaian homeland in Gaza, without threat.
Other Arab countries like Jordan and Egypt need to stay the .... out and not get involved. Iran needs to stop winding everyone up, in the name of Islam.
Any Jewish settlers on the west bank need to go back to Israel, or be cut off.

The UN needs to say to Hamas - you need to stop firing rockets into Israel.
If you don't we will support Israel in coming in and ....... you over.
If you do, Israel must give you Gaza, leave you in peace, allow Palestinians to enter Israel to work, and give a Palestinian state aid to allow it to get on its feet.

If that happens and Hamas keep attacking Israel, the UN should unite against them, and the UN (not Isreal) should go in and .... them over.
The Palestinian people need to understand the situation, which is political not religious, and they need to realise that if Hamas keep poking Israel, sooner or later they are going to get smashed. Kick Hamas out of giovernment.

Of course it will never happen, but hey.

Whats this thread all about again......

....s in SBK
( . ) ( . )

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jan 14 2009, 07:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes. Those passages are in the Tanakh.

Jesus was crucified by the Romans at the request of his own people. Obviously, he had to do something pretty severe for the Jewish leadership to ask for his crucifixion.

The man claimed to be God, yet a vast majority of the things he said were contradictory to or a reinterpretation of what was understood about the Tanakh. You can't record the rebuttals and corrections without including the original garbage.

A man who claimed to be God said things contradictory to what the Jews knew about God. Why do you think he said "whosoever believeth in me"?

Don't trouble yourself with the Old Testament. If it isn't verified in the Gospel, leave it alone. I don't think genocide was ever verified as one of God's commandments. In fact, I believe 1 of the Ten Commandments says "Thou shalt not murder". So genocide is not allowable under the Ten Commandments or the Gospel.

Thats a pretty good attempt at an explanation Lex. However, in regards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, may I remind you Jews/Muslims don't believe in Jesus as their Savior! Ah, but they do believe in the Old Testament. So in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, then perhaps your suggestion is; 'they just need Jesus', eh? But ok, moving on, so you are saying the Old Testament is the garbage that Jesus rebutted? Ok, then I'm assuming this is your imagination at work right, since it would have been pretty easy for Jesus to say a small easy to understand sentence to say something like, 'Now hear this, all the stuff you read in the Old Testament is complete ........ and I'm here to tell you don't believe the hype.' (paraphrasing of course). Uhm, I don't recall reading such a declarative statement (and believe me, I've read the entire thing several times).

But assuming your suggestion is correct and the conflict can be solved if these people just turned to Jesus. Well then, lets see what "good" Christians think of Jesus in regards to war shall we...

As you read below, you will see many contradictions and rationalizations that attempt to justify these inconsistencies. Its almost embarrassing to think that millions of people in such a "civil" society subscribe to this kind of madness. Yet, these same people chastise Muslims and Jews for their war like ways casting them off as lunatic fundamentalist who have corrupted sound religious tenets. And yet...(see below)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Is Jesus more like Gandhi or Genghis?

In stereotypical fashion, when people think of Jesus and war, they either view him as a Gandhi-like pacifist or a Genghis-Khan-like crusader. Both pictures are errant. And they are often created by the polarized selections of scripture that are used to try to lean us in either extreme. The truth is, for all the passages on love and sacrifice, there are others on protection and defense.

Consider these few words of Jesus.

… let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one.
The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Far more thrusting are Jesus' subtle and often overlooked four words at the end of this verse, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me" (Moses is traditionally regarded as the author of the first five books of the Bible).

The implications of Jesus' words are far-reaching, for in them he not only supports the rights to bear arms but aligns himself with the God of the Old Testament, who prepared people for battle by ordering, "Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, 'Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man …'"

(Of course every dagger draper must also wrestle with his caution, "for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword"!)

WWJW?

No question that Jesus Christ has called us to love our neighbors as ourselves, turn our other cheek in sacrifice for another, and pray for our enemies. And so we should. However, he also realizes criminals and terrorists will confront us and calls us to defend and protect our families and borders too.

God knows ahead of time that kingdoms and empires will clash. And he even periodically calls those powers within those conflicts to carry out his grand purposes – more often than not unbeknown to any of the warring factions.

The fact is, Jesus does support war. He already has. But the question we all want to know is this: is he on our side of the battle? WWJW (What would Jesus war)? I'll submit to his timing and revelation on the world stage for that answer:

When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. … And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

TheDailyNet, Chuck Norris (while on the campaign to support the rebulican presidential candidate, Mike Huckabee). LINK

Here we have a presentation and case for a man (Mike Huckabee) in contention for the arguably the most powerful office on Earth (more like a justification to all voting Christians to vote their "moral" bias and side with warmongers in the name of Jesus). The man got plenty of votes and was favored by their base even over John McCain. Not only that, but he was on a short list to be picked as Vice President (thank 'God' McCain picked the nail in the coffin Sara Palin, which was his demise in a strange sort of providence, eh). The point is, this is the type of rationalization (rational-lies) that many Christians subscribe to here in this country (surely, Rockgod typifies this ideation). They used this rationalization to bamboozle GOOD and KIND people of faith into believing these fabricated & slick justification for preemptive war and war in general. They have used these carefully crafted arguments using the "Holy Book" to convince people to vote them into power with the promise that they will do the "Lord's" work in their behalf.

Now for the record, it is my personal opinion that Jesus had many good messages for humanity. However, it seems that there are may inconsistencies which us humans have used for power, greed, destruction, and all sorts of evil.

This is the last post on the subject by me on this thread. If anybody wishes to extend the conversation, or debate me, or simply vent and air out their frustration in a constructive manner, then open up a thread in the Lounge. I'll be more than happy to trade thoughts. I can talk about this .... all day as long as you are willing to back it up with sound logic and reference.

what the hell was this thread about again???

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Jan 15 2009, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>what the hell was this thread about again???

no .... huh

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 15 2009, 01:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thats a pretty good attempt at an explanation Lex. However, in regards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, may I remind you Jews/Muslims don't believe in Jesus as their Savior!

Yes, you are right. That is why they fail. Both still believe heavily in the old covenants. They both believe God intends for them to own a physical land mass.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Ok, then I'm assuming this is your imagination at work right, since it would have been pretty easy for Jesus to say a small easy to understand sentence to say something like, 'Now hear this, all the stuff you read in the Old Testament is complete ........ and I'm here to tell you don't believe the hype.' (paraphrasing of course). Uhm, I don't recall reading such a declarative statement (and believe me, I've read the entire thing several times).

He did, more or less. One of the scriptures is actually quoted in the article you posted about the sword. The full verse goes like this:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)

The sword is not an instrument of death but an instrument of division. His teachings were not going to unite the people of Israel (not because he didn't want them to, but because they would be rejected). His teachings were a rebellion against most of the Torah (the 5 books of Moses).

Two chapters later he completes the theme when he said the "house divided" verse. I wasn't there so I don't know 100%, but I'm pretty sure he was lamenting the effect his rebellion was having upon people of little faith. He was calling for them to unite.

BTW the other verse where Jesus' tells the disciples to go buy a sword, he's mocking them.

The full passage:

Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. For it is written: 'he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.

He said this at the last supper after he caught the disciples quarreling amongst themselves about which one of them was the greatest. Obviously two swords was not going to be enough to stop the Romans.

Futhermore, what happened when they actually used the swords they bought? When one of them drew a sword and cut off a Roman soldiers ear Jesus said: "Put your sword back in its place… for all who take the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will provide me with more than twelve legions of angels?”

Throughout the Gospel the disciples screw up. Then their is a teaching to explain to them how they went wrong. I don't think the swords teaching could be anymore clear. Jesus tells them to buy a sword because they are imbeciles with no faith, then when they use it he admonishes them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Jan 15 2009, 07:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>what the hell was this thread about again???
Sorry buddy, I'm taking the off-topic part to the Lounge.

Ok, as far as WSBK vs MotoGP. The more I read about the proposed changes, the more I realize they are desperately clutching a straws. I do think MotoGP will survive. The true prototype aspect of this series died years ago. If it were up to me, I'd say the rules should be: Build a two wheeled vehicle to race on these tracks (of course a few minor considerations for safety). End of story. Can you imagine the innovation? I'd bet we'd see some rotary engines, turbos, cantievers, etc.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jan 15 2009, 07:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Paragraphs. Use them.
Books. Read them.
An education. Get one.
Hey ........ no one forced you to read my run on paragraph. So .... off .......!

Back on Topic: MotoGP vs WSBK

LINK

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 15 2009, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Back on Topic: MotoGP vs WSBK

LINK
back on topic

5000 Israeli troops have rapidly entered Jordan.

early reports say she is tired and her arse is sore but she will soldier on !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jan 15 2009, 10:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>back on topic

5000 Israeli troops have rapidly entered Jordan.

early reports say she is tired and her arse is sore but she will soldier on ! as long as I don't have to see video