Michelin etc.

Rossi crashed during the Michelin tests at Aragon.
Lorenzo, wisely, refused to test.
In the previous test all of them crashed: Marquez, Lorenzo, Rossi.

Now, apart from the timing of these tests -- putting at risk riders who are fighting for the title with four races to go -- there are implications that are becoming clear regarding the switch to Michelin in 2016.

The Michelin front is no match for the Bridgestone. All MotoGP riders will have to change their habits, and that's not easy -- as the crashes show. In particular, riders who are using the front heavily could be obliged to ease it and change their style.

Riders like Marquez and Rossi might suffer the change more than riders like Pedrosa and Lorenzo. Marc in particular might have trouble keeping his fantastic corner entry speed, on a Michelin front.

Were they all front end loses though J4 or is there a level of assumption (genuine question by the way as I have seen no reports)?

If they were all front end loses what were the track conditions (temps etc) and time of day of the accidents?

Asking as whilst no doubt the different manufacturers will have different builds and thus characteristics, we need to ensure that we are comparing apples with apples before we hit the 'panic' button.

As mentioned, genuine question as I have seen nothing of the tests.

Gaz said:

Were they all front end loses though J4 or is there a level of assumption (genuine question by the way as I have seen no reports)?

If they were all front end loses what were the track conditions (temps etc) and time of day of the accidents?

Asking as whilst no doubt the different manufacturers will have different builds and thus characteristics, we need to ensure that we are comparing apples with apples before we hit the 'panic' button.

As mentioned, genuine question as I have seen nothing of the tests.

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Manufacturers and riders by contract cannot comment the tests.
That the problem is the front (compared to the very excellent Bridgestone) is what transpires, that has been picked up by GPOne here (don't know what will come out of it through Google translator but you can try):
MotoGP, Michelin, la MotoGP è in preallarme.

J4s, I wouldn't worry too much about it, Michelin will figure out whats best for Rossi before 2016. "I am calm".

Calling Lorenzo's refusal to test, "wise" might not be true if it turns out Michelin is exploring Rossi's data as well as talking with him about what would work with compound design.

J4rn0 said:

The Michelin front is no match for the Bridgestone. All MotoGP riders will have to change their habits, and that's not easy -- as the crashes show. In particular, riders who are using the front heavily could be obliged to ease it and change their style.

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Over the last 10 years I've only seen 2 riders change their riding style, Stoner was one the other was Rossi, if you look how Stoner rode in 2006 and then again in 2011, its quite a bit different. Rossi has changed 3 times that I'm aware of, but the difference between his last win in the championship and this year is a lot different.

Maybe it will suit Rossi more next year!

JPSLotus said:

Calling Lorenzo's refusal to test, "wise" might not be true if it turns out Michelin is exploring Rossi's data as well as talking with him about what would work with compound design.

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Maybe if Lorenzo tell them what he likes, then they will design the exact opposite of that

Riders will have to change and adapt, yes. However, the bikes will go through changes as well ;most likely to the tune of suspension geometry and weight bias. With the the arrival of Bridgestones tires in 2008 Yamaha adapted by moving their engine back in the fram and got more room for the radiator and the ducts that shoveled its hot air away.

I assume bikes will return to a more forward engine bias with the Michelins.

Jumkie said:

J4s, I wouldn't worry too much about it, Michelin will figure out whats best for Rossi before 2016. "I am calm".

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JPSLotus said:

Calling Lorenzo's refusal to test, "wise" might not be true if it turns out Michelin is exploring Rossi's data as well as talking with him about what would work with compound design.

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As I think was implied by whoever originally posted about Jorge's "wisdom", he wants to win this championship, and not get injured testing whilst attempting to do so.

When Rossi leads Yamaha development it seems to result in bikes which suit Jorge as well. He did crash a lot on michelins in 2008, but he was a rookie then and the other and then dominant half of the team on the other side of the wall being on different tyres probably didn't help either.

Theo said:

Over the last 10 years I've only seen 2 riders change their riding style, Stoner was one the other was Rossi, if you look how Stoner rode in 2006 and then again in 2011, its quite a bit different. Rossi has changed 3 times that I'm aware of, but the difference between his last win in the championship and this year is a lot different.

Maybe it will suit Rossi more next year!

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A fascinating point to consider.

The jump from 250cc to the big class always required significant adaptation, although Biaggi and Lorenzo in particular exported their 250 styles with great success. 500 GP seemed to require the greatest accommodation particularly from Superbike.

I agree, Rossi's changes in style have been pronounced, primarily because he has been around for so long. Arguably the most significant has been since his return to Yamaha with the extreme lean angles now necessary. 'Hitting the Apex' addressed this very well.

Many riders that were around at the time had to majorly modify their style with the introduction of the 800cc formula because the characteristics of the machines were so different to the 990s and prior to that, the switch from two stroke to four stroke really didn't suit some (although not everyone was fortunate enough to inherit a spanking V5 RCV211v which was a race winner straight out of the crate). I remember Abe and Checa expressing a preference for the 500s and I've always cursed the fact that Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa arrived after this era.

In citing riders that have markedly altered their style, I would immediately add Pedrosa to your list.

Riders will do their best to adapt, still I see Marquez as the less adaptable of them all at least judging from the problems he had this year, trying to impose his style on the actual technical situation.

Anyway, it's not as if Michelin will do anything to favor this or that rider -- but they can't help having a precise techcnical DNA that is well known and will not change easily (assuming they care to change it just to offer riders a Bridgestone replica).

Michelin strikes me as a company that are willing to do whatever it takes to appease their employer, as opposed to Bridgestone's whole general culture is about highlighting their product. I think there will be clear manifestations and ramifications of Michelin's culture, that is, after they sort out what appears to be a grossly inadequate product at the moment.

Jumkie said:

...after they sort out what appears to be a grossly inadequate product at the moment.

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Nice FoxNews statement! Did you surmise this from the falls on bikes set up for 'Stones using Bibs with riders who have geared their styles entirely to the 'stones characteristics for the last 6 or so years?

Mick D said:

Nice FoxNews statement! Did you surmise this from the falls on bikes set up for 'Stones using Bibs with riders who have geared their styles entirely to the 'stones characteristics for the last 6 or so years?

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Exactly this.
It's a tyre test. They are going to be trying out new techniques and feeling out the new limits.
A few crashes are not very surprising.

Dr No said:

Exactly this.
It's a tyre test. They are going to be trying out new techniques and feeling out the new limits.
A few crashes are not very surprising.

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That's why it is surprising that they scheduled these tests with only four races to go, three of which in consecutive weekends.

The unofficial assessment is that their rear tire is already good enough, while the front needs a lot of work still. And it is improbable that it will ever be anything like the Bridgestone.

Thinking of it, maybe Lorenzo didn't test not so much to stay safe (he then managed to hurt his shoulder playing with minibikes...!) but simply because a less performing front would handicap his rivals more than him, so why bother?

Mick D said:

Nice FoxNews statement! Did you surmise this from the falls on bikes set up for 'Stones using Bibs with riders who have geared their styles entirely to the 'stones characteristics for the last 6 or so years?

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"The crash, along with others, suggests there are still several problems with the Michelin tires which need ironing out." Kropo

Jumkie said:

Michelin strikes me as a company that are willing to do whatever it takes to appease their employer, as opposed to Bridgestone's whole general culture is about highlighting their product. I think there will be clear manifestations and ramifications of Michelin's culture, that is, after they sort out what appears to be a grossly inadequate product at the moment.

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Not true. Take a look at what Michelin has done in other race series, they do anything but appease whoever is running the series.

Their f1 tire bid focused on technical specifications that were the complete opposite of what Bernie wants, and what Pirelli manufacturers. Michelin is all about making a high performing tire without sacrificing the quality their brand has come to represent. They only are interested in supplying tires when they think they can learn something from the overall experience with regards to R&D.

Jumkie said:

"The crash, along with others, suggests there are still several problems with the Michelin tires which need ironing out." Kropo

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Aren't the major considerations lap times and race durability? Do we know how these stack up against the Bridgestones?
Until then we don't know whether the tyres are sub-par or whether it's down to riders adaptation

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