melandri and ducati

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Dec 9 2007, 08:16 PM) [snapback]103877[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
wow, its so smooth.



smooth my guess is you are being funny ..

but just in case

in the second vid he opens the throttle almost in line with the marshals box, then its misfire till it gets almost to the straight ...... effect ...... steady low down power delivery. Look close and listen.

Here is Rossi's to compare it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rUR81QjcS4

obviously not screamer but no low end misfire there and real smooth increase in power. Stoners Ducati sounds like it takes of after a stage.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Dec 9 2007, 08:26 AM) [snapback]103866[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
y.................
I don't think Stoner is the only reason the Ducati has performed well on nearly every track. The capacity change to 800cc made the beast a little easier to tame with the traction control.


Easier? Hmmm the Ducati 800 screamer is NOT easy to take to the limit, even with (or perhaps because of) its very advanced TC, and Capirossi and Melandri are the demonstration. It is the most powerful bike (or it was up to now) but to take advantage of it you have to ride the thing the way it wants to be ridden. It does not adapt to you, you have to adapt to it, period. So far, only Stoner has been able to tame it... Maybe Casey with Ducati was just a natural match, as with Adriana

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MigsAngel @ Dec 8 2007, 09:19 PM) [snapback]103826[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Marco struggle on the Yamaha M1 2003, and 2004

Before Marco jumped from Tech 3 to Gresini Honda, Rossi had said to Marco that the Honda would suit his riding style. The Eurosport comedy duo had said it during one of late races in 2004.

Marco has a great year in 2005 with a 2nd, and a bad accident in 2006 but still rides to 4th overall.

Enter 2007, and Honda makes the an 800cc Pig, and the bridgestone help but don't fix all of Marco (AKA random number generator) riding problems.

Now Marco jumps on the Ducati, which is not as easy or as everyman's bike as the Honda, and requires more aggression and man handling than Marco (or Capirossi) may like or be good at....so the Ducati will not be good for Marco's riding style and we may be seeing the return of the M1 Marco of old....



he's gonna struggle.

I think the sounds were hard to compare, but ducati obviously cutting ignition but Rossi went around with another rider. Even so, it would not surprice if Rossi's tc knocks in very seldom, while stoners does very often.

What I found just as interesting were how Stoner use a point and shoot style, just like he said himself. Shortly after the apex you can see how he hold it along the inside before he quickly raise the bike and nail it. Capirossi doesn't do that and it wouldn't surprice me if that is the main defference.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Dec 10 2007, 12:24 AM) [snapback]103892[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I think the sounds were hard to compare, but ducati obviously cutting ignition but Rossi went around with another rider. Even so, it would not surprice if Rossi's tc knocks in very seldom, while stoners does very often.


Plain as day to me The Duc. really has some serious limiting going on down low thena distinct burst of cleaner acceleration. Very simillar to an old 500.

I don't think we are in the realms of TC in that footage, to me it shows the smoother nature Rossi has his engine mapped as, via the ECU. I was wondering why all the testers were saying the Duc. was mild in power as you start to accelerate out of a corner then hits at higher revs. Thats just engine mapping. If it was TC then that would kick in on higher speed corners when it was on that power surge that was described. But that was a reatively slow speed corner. My guess is Rossi has a very linear performance curve with smooth power throughout ( as Mamola said ) which would far better suit Rossi's style than the "nothing then hit" of the Duc.

But in any case Mapping the power and TC are pretty interlinked. The Mapping says I will give you X power at Y revs, the TC looks to see if entire bikes accelleration increase accords proportionally with the increase of revs of the back wheel, and if it is not it would use a simillar means to that used to provide the Mapped limitting to either limit or boost the power to the back wheel.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Dec 10 2007, 12:24 AM) [snapback]103892[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
What I found just as interesting were how Stoner use a point and shoot style, just like he said himself. Shortly after the apex you can see how he hold it along the inside before he quickly raise the bike and nail it. Capirossi doesn't do that and it wouldn't surprice me if that is the main defference.


But I think also in Stoners favour was that the point and shoot syle also suits the on/off nature he has the bike set up as. And yes I can see now that Capi could ride it very differently than Stoner but may not get out of the Duc. what Stoner does. In the descriptions of the test riders they talk about being able to turn it tight and gas it. Well yeah if it has got too much power down low that would make Stoners sharp but out wide apex not as safe to pull off.


Just out of interest ... has anyone noticed anybody else using that syle of cornering?

Definitely not Capi., Rossi or Melandri ... but I'm wondering about Hayden and Hopper?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BarryMachine @ Dec 9 2007, 03:21 PM) [snapback]103897[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Plain as day to me The Duc. really has some serious limiting going on down low thena distinct burst of cleaner acceleration. Very simillar to an old 500.

I don't know what you mean about "similar to the old 500. Heard a sound system on the video that hit the roof, together with the distinctive Ducati TC studder out of the corner.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>
I don't think we are in the realms of TC in that footage,

As I said, the sound is not good enough and could trick us, but that is TC as close at it gets. 4 strokes of today run clean at any rpm and throttle position. If it's not TC then it is som kind of intentional bad mapping creating the stddering
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>
to me it shows the smoother nature Rossi has his engine mapped as, via the ECU. I was wondering why all the testers were saying the Duc. was mild in power as you start to accelerate out of a corner then hits at higher revs. Thats just engine mapping. If it was TC then that would kick in on higher speed corners when it was on that power surge that was described. But that was a reatively slow speed corner. My guess is Rossi has a very linear performance curve with smooth power throughout ( as Mamola said ) which would far better suit Rossi's style than the "nothing then hit" of the Duc.

I think you mistake this from Rossi's style on that particular machine
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>

But I think also in Stoners favour was that the point and shoot syle also suits the on/off nature he has the bike set up as.

That was indeed my point exactly.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>
And yes I can see now that Capi could ride it very differently than Stoner but may not get out of the Duc. what Stoner does. In the descriptions of the test riders they talk about being able to turn it tight and gas it. Well yeah if it has got too much power down low that would make Stoners sharp but out wide apex not as safe to pull off.
Just out of interest ... has anyone noticed anybody else using that syle of cornering?

Definitely not Capi., Rossi or Melandri ... but I'm wondering about Hayden and Hopper?


That style were very common in the 500 days and the whole 990 area, alltough more so at the start with less traction control.
Lot's of riders have done that style extensivly and the only reason they don't use it now is bike setup, engine charesteristics... The other bikes are faster with the "250 style". This were the style that was not going to work this year, but I suspect there is more to it. Stoner manges to combine the fast entry needed with the 800's and with a combination of stones tires and his special setup and skill he manages to keep it thighter than the others just after the apex, giving him that little extra room to raise the bike and nail it at the exit. The testers talked about wide apex, wonder if that could be a wrong interpertation of a late apex, giving him a better drive out?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(skidmark @ Dec 9 2007, 07:57 AM) [snapback]103888[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
he's gonna struggle.

don't sound good does it it's still early tho so maybe he'll manage to adapt. damn shame hayden did not take the duc. i think it would have suited him nicely.

Yes. I was reading your post thinking about Hayden or Hoppers on the Duke. That would be very interesting. If indeed the bike is more suited to the point and shoot style of riding - they would be awesome on the bike.

Will we see Hayden on a Ducati in the future or will Stoner be the only point and shoot guy that throws a leg over the Ducati?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Noodlerizer @ Dec 9 2007, 09:37 AM) [snapback]103874[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I think Melandri and Hayden should switch places, that would work out both ways.


Right, I really think you are spot on!

Pity they will probably not be able to do that...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Duc999 @ Dec 9 2007, 05:05 PM) [snapback]103904[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Yes. I was reading your post thinking about Hayden or Hoppers on the Duke. That would be very interesting. If indeed the bike is more suited to the point and shoot style of riding - they would be awesome on the bike.

Will we see Hayden on a Ducati in the future or will Stoner be the only point and shoot guy that throws a leg over the Ducati?


The Ducati would suit Hayden and Hopper, and it is going to be awesome seeing Elias on it...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(frosty58 @ Dec 9 2007, 04:34 PM) [snapback]103901[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
don't sound good does it it's still early tho so maybe he'll manage to adapt. damn shame hayden did not take the duc. i think it would have suited him nicely.




I'd love to see Marco get on with the Ducati but it really isn't a promising start. Ducati probably aren't all that happy either, they give him the bike that won the title and he can't ride it, more than that he's given a list of things that, in his opinion, need changed. Sound familiar? The super supple and forgiving Gresini 990 was exremely flattering to Melandri, whilst the taut and fickle M1 and the inadequate Gresini 800 were most definately not. Marco's initial form on the all-conquering factory Ducati, especially on the B'stones he's so used to, says more of Stoner than Marco. If Honda don't bring it next year, Nicky should start waving his flag, he's got wins ahead of him on the right bike.

funny that after 2 tests, the same people who says melandri would beat stoner are or saying, oh i wish hayden or hoper or elias was won the ducati hahahahha

i'm suprised i havent read rossi should be on the ducati. i would love to see that, but i guess the ducati wont suit him either.

who else does stoner have to beat to prove he is the best hahaha

good riders gets a bike that suites them, great riders ride AROUND or ADAPTS to the flaws of the bike/setup.

Look at doohan how he had to adapt to his riding coz he couldnt rear break with his foot coz of injury, what other rider could adapt and still dominate like he did.

Setups are never perfect, track temps alone changes during a race and from practice, great riders dont rely on a PERFECT BKE or PERFECT SETUP.

thats where caparossi and melandri are going wrong. instead of adapting to the ducati they are trying to do mass changes to it to suit thier own style.

the most important aspect of the bike is the rider, accept the ducati for what it is, instead of shaking your head everytime the front end wobbles, change your own style, coz someone else has already proven it can dominate races.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MigsAngel @ Dec 10 2007, 05:16 AM) [snapback]103913[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
The Ducati would suit Hayden and Hopper, and it is going to be awesome seeing Elias on it...


Totally agree - Elias will surprise many this year on the Ducati.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinky @ Dec 9 2007, 09:34 PM) [snapback]103918[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
who else does stoner have to beat to prove he is the best hahaha





nobody

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinky @ Dec 9 2007, 10:34 PM) [snapback]103918[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
funny that after 2 tests, the same people who says melandri would beat stoner are or saying, oh i wish hayden or hoper or elias was won the ducati hahahahha

i'm suprised i havent read rossi should be on the ducati. i would love to see that, but i guess the ducati wont suit him either.

who else does stoner have to beat to prove he is the best hahaha

good riders gets a bike that suites them, great riders ride AROUND or ADAPTS to the flaws of the bike/setup.

Look at doohan how he had to adapt to his riding coz he couldnt rear break with his foot coz of injury, what other rider could adapt and still dominate like he did.

Setups are never perfect, track temps alone changes during a race and from practice, great riders dont rely on a PERFECT BKE or PERFECT SETUP.

thats where caparossi and melandri are going wrong. instead of adapting to the ducati they are trying to do mass changes to it to suit thier own style.

the most important aspect of the bike is the rider, accept the ducati for what it is, instead of shaking your head everytime the front end wobbles, change your own style, coz someone else has already proven it can dominate races.


I have no doubt Stoner is a great rider, but you are going a bit too far. The bike must have the winning potential just like the rider, otherwise it is uselss. If such was the power of your hypotetical Stoner, I wonder why he did not 'ride around' LCR Honda's problems already in 2006? Or why he did not stay there and win in 2007 with a sat bike? Why look for a factory ride if all bikes are equal to him?

the LCR was hardly a WC winning bike or had the budget.

the ducatis is a WC capable bike and team.

setup and bike is damm important, the ducati has the base for a great bike has been for the last 5 years, just needed someone good enough to utilize it.

[/quote]
i'm suprised i havent read rossi should be on the ducati. i would love to see that, but i guess the ducati wont suit him either.
[/quote]

I would love to see Rossi on the Ducati..

[/quote]
thats where caparossi and melandri are going wrong. instead of adapting to the ducati they are trying to do mass changes to it to suit thier own style.
[/quote]

I am starting to wonder if Melandri may be sandbagging a little bit so as not to tip his hand for next season... hey it's possible... Not likely but possible.

What I do think is that he was not pushing to make fast times on the bike. I don't think that he is as far off as the times say.
We will see....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(J4rn0 @ Dec 10 2007, 11:16 AM) [snapback]103928[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Why look for a factory ride if all bikes are equal to him?


AT 21 my guess is he originally grabbed whatever he could as a stepping stone ....... just didn't expect the "stepping stone" to be his express elevator

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinky @ Dec 10 2007, 08:34 AM) [snapback]103918[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
i'm suprised i havent read rossi should be on the ducati.


Well so am I

Thats where a lot of the talk of the Ducati stemmed from ... disgruntled Rossi fans saying Yamaha was .... ...... and the Ducati was good.

Did you not see this picky?





But I do think Rossi on Duc. would be a disaster.

Who knows maybe Melandri can bring further development to make it a good bike for smooth riders

i bet rossi would want to change the ducati red to yellow or some .... fucgly color like that.

i would like to see him on a ducati, a factory ducati that is, otherwise rossi will change his name to Valention Biaggi LOL

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(J4rn0 @ Dec 9 2007, 06:27 PM) [snapback]103885[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Easier? Hmmm the Ducati 800 screamer is NOT easy to take to the limit, even with (or perhaps because of) its very advanced TC, and Capirossi and Melandri are the demonstration. It is the most powerful bike (or it was up to now) but to take advantage of it you have to ride the thing the way it wants to be ridden. It does not adapt to you, you have to adapt to it, period. So far, only Stoner has been able to tame it... Maybe Casey with Ducati was just a natural match, as with Adriana


Lorenzo? I think he will adapt it soon. But in fact Lorenzo is on M1. And he is quick too.