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Hmmm after further reading seems Kropo agrees!



http://motomatters.c...e_motogp_w.html

Hmmm after further reading seems Kropo agrees!



http://motomatters.c...e_motogp_w.html

He thinks we will have a nirvana with a rev limit and a control ecu massively increasing grid numbers. I hope he is correct, and would accept those things if they are the price of the sport's survival. I lack his faith in dorna's ability to actually come up with a sensible alternative which works, given that the law of unintended consequences seems to have operated with almost their every past action, although they do at least seem to now have sought out well qualified technical advisors.



You may be right about 4 kg not making much difference, but I think changing the rules so late with the game well underway is not reasonable on principle as with civil matters. It makes perfect sense to increase the minimum weight to help the CRT teams, but if dorna have stuffed up their attempt to introduce 2 formulas/formulae at once, the CRT one seeming to be very much on an ongoing ad hoc basis, they can wait till next year to fix the rules.



What I find hard to believe is that the msma would say opposition was unanimous if it wasn't.
 
He thinks we will have a nirvana with a rev limit and a control ecu massively increasing grid numbers. I hope he is correct, and would accept those things if they are the price of the sport's survival. I lack his faith in dorna's ability to actually come up with a sensible alternative which works, given that the law of unintended consequences seems to have operated with almost their every past action, although they do at least seem to now have sought out well qualified technical advisors.



I do not believe we will have a nirvana with a rev limit and a control ecu. Personally, I'd like to see the engine capacity limit dropped, as it makes no sense to have both an engine capacity limit and a fuel capacity limit. Dropping the engine capacity limit allows for more flexible and more interesting solutions. Imposing a rev limit is the inevitable consequence of not scrapping the engine capacity limit.



As for my faith in Dorna's ability to come up with sensible alternatives, I seriously doubt this too. I do believe that Dorna will do better than the factories, as the factories actively need high costs to keep competitors out. If you can build a competitive MotoGP bike for $1 million, a lot of factories would enter, reducing the chance of Honda, Yamaha and Ducati winning another championship. I am not saying that Dorna's solutions will be good, I am merely saying they won't be as bad as the factories.





What I find hard to believe is that the msma would say opposition was unnanimous if it wasn't.



It is frighteningly commonplace. Why all the complaints about Honda's power in the MSMA? Dennis Noyes put it like this: "I sometimes think the MSMA meetings are just Tsubouchi sitting in his car and writing down what HRC tells him."
 
What I find hard to believe is that the msma would say opposition was unnanimous if it wasn't.

I'm thinkin the scenario went like this. Ducati either wasn't present or deferred a vote. MSMA counted the two voting parties as "unanimous". When Dorna wanted to look for a way to strongarm in a weight change (for whatever reasons - CRTs or Duc or Rossi,,,?) they sniffed out the loophole with Ducati's help and exploited it.
 
I'm thinkin the scenario went like this. Ducati either wasn't present or deferred a vote. MSMA counted the two voting parties as "unanimous". When Dorna wanted to look for a way to strongarm in a weight change (for whatever reasons - CRTs or Duc or Rossi,,,?) they sniffed out the loophole with Ducati's help and exploited it.

As I was going to say in my earlier post before my ride arrived and I had to cease more or less mid thought bubble, I don't think this was a conspiracy in favour of ducati or rossi, I think dorna want the CRT thing to work and the decision was genuinely to that end. I just have a problem in general with people making things up as they go along, and can see honda's and yamaha's point of view on this particular issue, instrumental though they may have been in the development of the problem requiring the drastic solutions.
 
It is frighteningly commonplace. Why all the complaints about Honda's power in the MSMA? Dennis Noyes put it like this: "I sometimes think the MSMA meetings are just Tsubouchi sitting in his car and writing down what HRC tells him."

I was somewhat cut off mid thought/mid post. I did think it extraordinary they would deliberately lie about something so easily checked, but you would know better than me.



I did take the real point of your analysis also, which was that if the cost of a satellite equivalent bike can be got down to a million a year or so then there are many more potential participants.
 
I was somewhat cut off mid thought/mid post. I did think it extraordinary they would deliberately lie about something so easily checked, but you would know better than me.



It is not easily checked. The minutes are not made public, and the other members of the GPC take on trust that the MSMA is faithfully reporting what happened. They can ask for the minutes should they need to, and apparently, it pays off to do so.
 
It is not easily checked. The minutes are not made public, and the other members of the GPC take on trust that the MSMA is faithfully reporting what happened. They can ask for the minutes should they need to, and apparently, it pays off to do so.

I meant that the source of the non unanimity would be aware that the vote was not unanimous.
 
As I understand it, the unanimity was subject to horse trading. Now, with only 3 members, there's fewer horses to trade.

Something doesnt smell right. Are you suggesting that Yamaha and Honda just assumed that Ducati wouldnt go and tell Dorna that the vote wasnt unanimous. None of this makes sense
 
Something doesnt smell right. Are you suggesting that Yamaha and Honda just assumed that Ducati wouldnt go and tell Dorna that the vote wasnt unanimous. None of this makes sense



That's what happened before.
 
Then it certainly doesnt make sense. Fool me once,shame on you, fool me twice , shame on me. Smells even fishier now.

Your not getting it Pov. Nothing fishy, just business as usual for the MSMA mob!
 
Your not getting it Pov. Nothing fishy, just business as usual for the MSMA mob!

What would Honda or Yamaha have to gain by lying if they unequivocally knew that Ducati would rat them out, especially a lie that is documented in minutes. Doesnt make sense. The scenario you suggested earlier makes way more sense in that it is a defensible lie. But then again, politicians are sociopathic liars, maybe i just give the Japanese to much credit when it comes to honor.
 
Sounds like a pure power play by Ducati, no more and no less and really, this for the manufacturers concerned is not sport but business and in business, one takes each and every advantage they can to cause maximum disruption and disadvantage to their business competitors. All up, a smart business decision by Ducati to 'rock the boat' as it were.



Although, for this minion I do think that the decision to change the weight ruling at a point so close to the new season beginning and when copious amounts of dollars had already been spent by the big two is interesting to say the least of DORNA. On one hand we have an organisation beating their chest and proclaiming 'we must save dollars' whilst then, knowingly changes the rules (or moving the goal posts) knowing full well taht this woudl result in an immediate increase in costs and highlight wasted funds already used.



To me, it smacks of arrogance, a power play and of DORNA saying 'this is our game, we are the boss, you don't like it, then do not let the door hit you on the way out.



This is a business afterall.
 
All well and good until Honda and Yamaha walk away and leave Dorna with a bunch of 'bought ride' riders and bikes that are slower then WSBK's.
 
All well and good until Honda and Yamaha walk away and leave Dorna with a bunch of 'bought ride' riders and bikes that are slower then WSBK's.

And if you read what Flammini says in the interview i posted, he does not believe Bridegepoint will force WSBK to become Superstock to make appearances that GP is the pinnacle of bike racing. I hope he is right.
 

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