Match the quote

“Personally I am so frustrated about the Grand Prix Commission decision. In December it is impossible. We had already made some assembly parts and some spare parts and to change it by 4kgs makes it impossible to do anything. It is quite difficult. For me it is not a technical regulation for a sporting reason and I am very frustrated about this.

"If we have one-year lead-time then we can prepare. Braking performance with 1kg more is a big difference so with 4kg you can imagine what happens. We have to investigate which part of the bike is better to position the ballast but where we have put the weight is top secret.”

Paddock rumour pointed the finger at Ducati for pushing for the weight increase because of concerns its new GP12 couldn’t get close to the original 153kg limit.

When the weight limit was increased to 157kg, Ducati hadn’t started building its new spec [color=#009900 ! important][font=inherit ! important][color=#009900 ! important][font=inherit ! important]Desmosedici[/font][/font][/color][/color], so the impact on the Bologna factory has been considerably less.

Ducati though strongly rejects any suggestion it pushed for the 4kg increase.

Factory team boss Vittoriano Guareschi told MCN: “This was a Dorna decision to decrease the cost but for Ducati it was easier to adapt the bike because when it was changed we only started building the bike.

"So for us it was easier to put 4kg in the machine. Sure for the Japanese they had their bikes done and for them it is not easy to put that weight on the machine. But we didn’t have a part in this decision. Our bike was only starting to be built and other machines were already done. We didn’t ask about this.”



This weight issue has caused a lot more hard feelings than some are letting on.It was ........ to change in midstream after companies had spent millions in development. Sticking 9 extra pounds of ballast on a bike is nothing like building it in



I personally do not believe a word that Guareschi says. He says they had nothing to do with this decision, yet it was passed because the MSMA was not unanimously against it. Considering Yamaha and Honda were both adamantly against it, the ole saying, i will give you three guesses, and two dont count comes into play

If the vote wasn't unanimous then they had the right to make the change. Why have a vote then if there are no consequences? As soon as the vote was cast, they should have known there was a possibility for a change. Honda/Yamaha should stop whining and get on with it. They have governing rules that they must abide by, if they don't like it, then they should leave like Kawa and Suz. All this does is give others who have a propensity for whining to following it up with more whining of their own...Pov.

povol said:

This weight issue has caused a lot more hard feelings than some are letting on.It was ........ to change in midstream after companies had spent millions in development. Sticking 9 extra pounds of ballast on a bike is nothing like building it in



I personally do not believe a word that Guareschi says. He says they had nothing to do with this decision, yet it was passed because the MSMA was not unanimously against it. Considering Yamaha and Honda were both adamantly against it, the ole saying, i will give you three guesses, and two dont count comes into play

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It matters not who you think is being honest. I realize you have a problem accepting votes when they don't go your way. Clearly this weight issue surrounds the CRT, despite a few neoboppers claiming it was to screw with Honda, which they really mean Stoner, exclusively. If Ducati did issue the vote to frustrate their rivals, then I'd say they were very smart and shrewd.

povol said:

“Personally I am so frustrated about the Grand Prix Commission decision. In December it is impossible. We had already made some assembly parts and some spare parts and to change it by 4kgs makes it impossible to do anything. It is quite difficult. For me it is not a technical regulation for a sporting reason and I am very frustrated about this.

"If we have one-year lead-time then we can prepare. Braking performance with 1kg more is a big difference so with 4kg you can imagine what happens. We have to investigate which part of the bike is better to position the ballast but where we have put the weight is top secret.”

Paddock rumour pointed the finger at Ducati for pushing for the weight increase because of concerns its new GP12 couldn’t get close to the original 153kg limit.

When the weight limit was increased to 157kg, Ducati hadn’t started building its new spec [color=#009900 ! important][font=inherit ! important][color=#009900 ! important][font=inherit ! important]Desmosedici[/font][/font][/color][/color], so the impact on the Bologna factory has been considerably less.

Ducati though strongly rejects any suggestion it pushed for the 4kg increase.

Factory team boss Vittoriano Guareschi told MCN: “This was a Dorna decision to decrease the cost but for Ducati it was easier to adapt the bike because when it was changed we only started building the bike.

"So for us it was easier to put 4kg in the machine. Sure for the Japanese they had their bikes done and for them it is not easy to put that weight on the machine. But we didn’t have a part in this decision. Our bike was only starting to be built and other machines were already done. We didn’t ask about this.”



This weight issue has caused a lot more hard feelings than some are letting on.It was ........ to change in midstream after companies had spent millions in development. Sticking 9 extra pounds of ballast on a bike is nothing like building it in



I personally do not believe a word that Guareschi says. He says they had nothing to do with this decision, yet it was passed because the MSMA was not unanimously against it. Considering Yamaha and Honda were both adamantly against it, the ole saying, i will give you three guesses, and two dont count comes into play

Click to expand...

Yet another cost saving measure that costs money, like pretty well every other one that dorna has introduced. I think the rationale of making the CRT bikes more viable is fine, but changing the regulations after yamaha and honda had built this year's bikes is not.



I guess when they came up with the crt concept in some late night tapas bar there was not enough room on the back of the drinks coaster they were using to include the minimum weight regulation.

michaelm said:

Yet another cost saving measure that costs money, like pretty well every other one that dorna has introduced. I think the rationale of making the CRT bikes more viable is fine, but changing the regulations after yamaha and honda had built this year's bikes is not.



I guess when they came up with the crt concept in some late night tapas bar there was not enough room on the back of the drinks coaster they were using to include the minimum weight regulation.

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Perhaps the consequence of not being proactive. Couldn't the manufactures demanded they would not go forward unless minimum weight was established at some predetermined date? It seems a pretty big deal they themselves didn't think about once they put themselves in the position that a vote, if not unanimous, could change things. Again, if Ducati did do this to frustrate their rivals, it was brilliant. As they took advantage of something their rivals had left open for disturbance.

Jumkie said:

Perhaps the consequence of not being proactive. Couldn't the manufactures demanded they would not go forward unless minimum weight was established at some predetermined date? It seems a pretty big deal they themselves didn't think about once they put themselves in the position that a vote, if not unanimous, could change things. Again, if Ducati did do this to frustrate their rivals, it was brilliant. As they took advantage of something their rivals had left open for disturbance.

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As you know jumkie I support the crt concept in the absence of anyone coming up with anything else, but I don't have great confidence at all in dorna's capacity to successfully implement it.



The subtext to all this would seem to me to be that ducati changed their mind or told yamaha and honda one thing and dorna another. It is almost beside the point in any case, because changing the minimum weight in November many months after the bikes have been built to an existing rule is not reasonable whether or not ducati opposed it. I actually don't dispute that the msma are substantially responsible for the current non sustainable cost structure in gp racing, but an arbitrary late rule change with significant costs attached seems a strange element in a cost saving agenda.



Perhaps this is a precursor to performance ballasting, to which I would definitely be opposed.

Jumkie said:

If the vote wasn't unanimous then they had the right to make the change. Why have a vote then if there are no consequences? As soon as the vote was cast, they should have known there was a possibility for a change. Honda/Yamaha should stop whining and get on with it. They have governing rules that they must abide by, if they don't like it, then they should leave like Kawa and Suz. All this does is give others who have a propensity for whining to following it up with more whining of their own...Pov.

It matters not who you think is being honest. I realize you have a problem accepting votes when they don't go your way. Clearly this weight issue surrounds the CRT, despite a few neoboppers claiming it was to screw with Honda, which they really mean Stoner, exclusively. If Ducati did issue the vote to frustrate their rivals, then I'd say they were very smart and shrewd.

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The quote was from the head of Yamaha. In your eagerness to respond, you totally forgot the title of the thread. I threw out some bait, and caught exactly what i was fishing for.

michaelm said:

As you know jumkie I support the crt concept in the absence of anyone coming up with anything else, but I don't have great confidence at all in dorna's capacity to successfully implement it.



The subtext to all this would seem to me to be that ducati changed their mind or told yamaha and honda one thing and dorna another. It is almost beside the point in any case, because changing the minimum weight in November many months after the bikes have been built to an existing rule is not reasonable whether or not ducati opposed it. I actually don't dispute that the msma are substantially responsible for the current non sustainable cost structure in gp racing, but an arbitrary late rule change with significant costs attached seems a strange element in a cost saving agenda.



Perhaps this is a precursor to performance ballasting, to which I would definitely be opposed.

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I dont think Jum understands the time line involved. The regs for the bikes were set in 2010, Honda and Yamaha engineered their bikes for over a year, at a cost of millions, only to have Dorna change the regs in Nov of 2011. It just so happens, Ducati was in the middle of giving up on the bike they had planned on using for 2012 and voted to change regs for a competitive advantage. That is not savvy or shrewd, its the move of a desperate charlatan. Nothing like stabbing your fellow competitors in the back.



Dorna cares nothing about saving the factories money, its all about saving their money.

michaelm said:

It is almost beside the point in any case, because changing the minimum weight in November many months after the bikes have been built to an existing rule is not reasonable whether or not ducati opposed it.



I actually don't dispute that the msma are substantially responsible for the current non sustainable cost structure in gp racing, but an arbitrary late rule change with significant costs attached seems a strange element in a cost saving agenda.

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Absolutely agree with these two points Mike. No doubt you are correct. Dorna and the rules makers have used "cost saving" and more dastardly "in the name of safety" to make many moves that had ulterior motives.

povol said:

The quote was from the head of Yamaha. In your eagerness to respond, you totally forgot the title of the thread. I threw out some bait, and caught exactly what i was fishing for.

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Buddy, i'm aware it was Yamaha & Honda. Go back and see my rebut on of the neobop conspiracy theory of Dec's change. I questioned their logic, then if this was aimed solely at Honda, how do Yamaha benefit, if they are also in the same predicament? Oops, there goes that conspiracy theory. You didn't bait ...., what happened is, as usual, I'm calling you on your 'eagerness' to add fuel to baseless conspiracy. Again, if Ducati had in mind to frustrate their rivals at such a late stage, then they did it brilliantly. The reality is, it probably won't count for much on the track, as the Japs are way ahead (but that won't stop you and your ilk from whining). More to the question, why are they allowed to make such a vital change so late in the game? If that's the silliness that they didn't see coming, then shame on Honda & Yamaha.

povol said:

I dont think Jum understands the time line involved. The regs for the bikes were set in 2010, Honda and Yamaha engineered their bikes for over a year, at a cost of millions, only to have Dorna change the regs in Nov of 2011. It just so happens, Ducati was in the middle of giving up on the bike they had planned on using for 2012 and voted to change regs for a competitive advantage. That is not savvy or shrewd, its the move of a desperate charlatan. Nothing like stabbing your fellow competitors in the back.



Dorna cares nothing about saving the factories money, its all about saving their money.

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Competition. Look it up.

Interesting stuff, especially considering the rulebook Ducati somehow managed to get into SBK. Wonder what other plans they have for Motogp?

birdman said:

Interesting stuff, especially considering the rulebook Ducati somehow managed to get into SBK. Wonder what other plans they have for Motogp?

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GP has been a Honda/Yamaha cup for most of its modern history. So lets not think GP is holier than Wsbk shall we...

Jumkie said:

GP has been a Honda/Yamaha cup for most of its modern history. So lets not think GP is holier than Wsbk shall we...

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I get the feeling Ducati would love Motogp to be just as holy and pure an engineering competition as SBK. Good luck to them, but I hardly feel its worthy of praise for how brilliant they are. Remember this is the same smart and shrewd mob who sent Melandri off to the shrink.

Given that weight reduction is one of the most expensive things in racing, I see no reason to disbelieve that dorna wanted to raise the limit to help the crt teams, and no plots against honda or stoner need to be suspected. I do think dorna may have had an ulterior motive of having a dig at yamaha and honda as part of their ongoing battle; if they wished to annoy them it would seem they have been successful.



My point is that they are incompetent and prone to ad hoc decisions without working through the consequences, and in crt they seem to have devised an entire formula on an ad hoc basis. Change the rule for next year, give the crt bikes another litre or whatever; as I said it is unreasonable and amateurish to change the rules so late in proceedings, not that the new rule is unreasonable in itself, although the bikes seem to be fairly heavy by racing bike standards anyway.

Where were all the concerns about the rules while Ducati was slowly watching it's HP advantadge taken away ? As they say, "pay back's a .....", and not only did the HP advantage erode but the six engine rule hurt them hard because of the way the engine used to be mounted. So they lost their ability to even be competitive because of the rules. If you're a fan of any rider on a Duc you had to suffer through last season because they couldn't change the engine.

The head Yamaha man also said they fixed their chatter and Stoner's crew chief has already said they always had chatter at Sepang, it's just one of those tracks.

The Duc that Nicky had during the test was also giving him problems with chatter, if the extra weight is that big of a problem why are the lap times so much faster than the 800s.

Dorna said they were going to start dealing with the MSMA as separate entities instead of as a whole, sounds good to me, now they have to have a strategy and they can't have any back door deals. It seems Honda is the most upset by this as they've been doing the most crying about the weight and the chatter. I think the future of GP looks bright, we have Aprilia participating again and Suzuki is planning a come back, the CRTs will only get faster just like the moto2 bikes did. If Dorna would just pull their head out of their ... and give us better coverage it would be that much better.

hawkdriver said:

Where were all the concerns about the rules while Ducati was slowly watching it's HP advantadge taken away ? As they say, "pay back's a .....", and not only did the HP advantage erode but the six engine rule hurt them hard because of the way the engine used to be mounted. So they lost their ability to even be competitive because of the rules. If you're a fan of any rider on a Duc you had to suffer through last season because they couldn't change the engine.

The head Yamaha man also said they fixed their chatter and Stoner's crew chief has already said they always had chatter at Sepang, it's just one of those tracks.

The Duc that Nicky had during the test was also giving him problems with chatter, if the extra weight is that big of a problem why are the lap times so much faster than the 800s.

Dorna said they were going to start dealing with the MSMA as separate entities instead of as a whole, sounds good to me, now they have to have a strategy and they can't have any back door deals. It seems Honda is the most upset by this as they've been doing the most crying about the weight and the chatter. I think the future of GP looks bright, we have Aprilia participating again and Suzuki is planning a come back, the CRTs will only get faster just like the moto2 bikes did. If Dorna would just pull their head out of their ... and give us better coverage it would be that much better.

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The MSMA, particularly honda, are correctly imo ascribed a lot of the responsibility for the in many ways disastrous 800 formula, although this was a response, ill advised as it would now appear, to katoh's death by all parties involved, with the fuel economy aspect an attempt at a de facto horsepower/performance limit.



The msma being incompetent or self interested doesn't make dorna competent or professional however, and their serial ad hoc tweaking of the rules, often with cost saving as the purported object has almost invariably increased costs, particularly the control tyre and engine limitation rules. As david emmett says in his current discussion of the weight saving thing, increased costs due to dorna induced rule changes have likely largely contributed to kawasaki's and suzuki's demise as has been said before on here. I personally think that suzuki if they really are interested in racing longterm may be sitting it out precisely because they foresaw the likelihood of such capricious rule changes and may be waiting until some consistent formula arises.



I agree ducati have been screwed in the past; they did it would seem rightly oppose the 800 formula change, and were also opposed to the control tyre rule. However dorna were among those unconcerned about ducati then, and I don't think the control tyre or the engine limitations were honda or yamaha initiatives, and as I said last minute rule changes as a consequence of dorna making up the CRT formula as they go leading to honda and yamaha incurring considerable costs to re-engineer their bikes would seem a strange way to prosecute a cost saving agenda.

hawkdriver said:

Where were all the concerns about the rules while Ducati was slowly watching it's HP advantadge taken away ? As they say, "pay back's a .....", and not only did the HP advantage erode but the six engine rule hurt them hard because of the way the engine used to be mounted. So they lost their ability to even be competitive because of the rules. If you're a fan of any rider on a Duc you had to suffer through last season because they couldn't change the engine.

The head Yamaha man also said they fixed their chatter and Stoner's crew chief has already said they always had chatter at Sepang, it's just one of those tracks.

The Duc that Nicky had during the test was also giving him problems with chatter, if the extra weight is that big of a problem why are the lap times so much faster than the 800s.

Dorna said they were going to start dealing with the MSMA as separate entities instead of as a whole, sounds good to me, now they have to have a strategy and they can't have any back door deals. It seems Honda is the most upset by this as they've been doing the most crying about the weight and the chatter. I think the future of GP looks bright, we have Aprilia participating again and Suzuki is planning a come back, the CRTs will only get faster just like the moto2 bikes did. If Dorna would just pull their head out of their ... and give us better coverage it would be that much better.

Click to expand...

What rules took away Ducatis hp advantage. It was more like other teams, or should i say Honda, caught up. Once they went to the pnuematic valve train, the Ducati hp advantage was basically gone. Even then , Ducati still was faster in a straight line on some tracks. Ducati's lousy initial design and desperation to make Rossi competitive is what caused them to suffer under the 6 engine rule last year. No one made them totally change their bike mid season to where the engines wouldnt bolt up. That was all on them and their design team.If you like Superbike, the future of GP looks great. Next year, GP bikes will be whopping 5 pounds less than a World Superbike.

.... the midgets i say add another 10 kilos to the bikes ...and 2 more gallons of fuel

Sorry but I do not buy the 4kg conspiracy. Adding ballast ain't rocket science. In fact moveable ballast could be an advantage when tuning the bike for different tracks. All it is is a Jap Yamahonda red herring in the continuing political power struggle between the MSMA and Dorna.

Hmmm after further reading seems Kropo agrees!



http://motomatters.com/analysis/2012/03/05/politics_and_power_play_why_the_motogp_w.html