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The three greatest problems facing MotoGP today are:

1. Lack of 'close racing' at the front of the field, especially compared to WSBK
2. Expense. The costs involved in racing in the MotoGP class are prohibitive leading to small grids.
3. A format too similar to WSBK, a lack of product differentiation.

In my opinion, a return to the two two stroke formula would solve many of these issues. However, maybe a 600cc or 700cc capacity limit instead of the 500cc limit, to ensure WSBK is not faster.

1. The two strokes have repeatedly proven that they are amenable to close racing(see 125cc and 250cc today, and the 500cc era), as there is a real limit as to the extent an engineer can can tame their power delivery. The 500s also demonstrated that they can accommodate several different riding styles.

2. Expense. They key to producing a good two stroke is not simply by spending unreasonable amounts on engineering solutions(unlike the four stroke formula). There is considerable capacity for privateers to use novel solutions to the engineering problems that the two stroke presents, allowing privateers to be competitive without getting into a spending competition. The two stroke engine is an inherently difficult engine to tune, for various reasons. Ideas, not money are the key. The grids will consequently be filled.

3. At the moment, WSBK and MotoGP are very similar in many respects. The casual member of the public is hard pressed to differentiate the two series' from each other with the current four stroke, control tyre format used for both competitions. Of course, fans know that the MotoGP machines are prototypes, whereas Superbikes are modified(albeit extensively) production machines. However, the spectacle is quite similar. Perhaps providing a point of differentiation one can see and hear would assist in differentiating the two series' from each other.

Problems? Honda has historically demonstrated its contempt for the two stroke, from the very beginning with its NR500 project(of which Fukui was intimately involved!). Honda control decisions made in MotoGP to a large extent.
Similarly, one could argue that the manufacturers would desire a prototype series that bears direct resemblance to the product that they sell; two strokes do not easily meet the stringent emission requirements imposed in various markets thus the MotoGP class may be argued to be commercially unviable. Of course, the converse argument could be made; the development of these prototype machines will assist in developing engineering solutions for the 2-Stroke these manufacturers wish to sell. (For more information on this, see the latest experiments being conducted by various entities on Direct Injection and the 2T format).

Lastly, I cannot envisage Ducati being interested in this format. Ducati's tradition is almost exclusively involved with the four stroke engine and it would not make commercial sense to develop a two stroke.

What are your thoughts?
 
Ducati is a very big reason why i follow Moto GP so i wouldn't vote for 2strokes.
 
1. Looking at 125 and 250 to "prove" that strokers serve close racing is not a valid argument.
250 and 125 give us close racing for many reasons but being 2-stroke is not one of them. Clearest proof: you still have to be on factory equipment to win. That difference would be hugely enhanced with a large capacity 2-stroke.

2. Introduction of the 4-stroke where just one of many circels added to the cost spiral. And that must again be devided into catagories, where the machine is only one. Allthough more costly to develop and maintain the gains to marketing make this probebly the best investment for the factories. Going back to 2-stroke would allmost nullify that advantage. Besides, cost is just as much about tires and electonics and a huge chunk on the willingness the factories have to spend money for results. With the economic progress recent years and the increased efforts in all sports, increased income through broadcasting rigts and comersials the money has been available and spendt.

3. The casual member of the public were hard pressed to see any difference even ehen it was stokers. They just found the sound funny. SBK and MotoGP were at the closest just when SBK increased to 1000cc. Just as close lap times and closer in spec.

It's just a wet dream for a stroker fan, nothing more i'm afraid.
I wouldn't mind seing them returning but I can't see it happeneing.
 
To go back to 2 strokes would be a disaster, and Honda wouldnt be interested for a start, they would sound .... but smell nice !
I Think all they have to do is get rid of the electronic rider aids, I believe its that simple.
We had close racing in the 500 and 990 times, but electronics were not really used at all in 500 and were only being developed in 990s hence close racing.
Now it would seem that the bike with the best electonics wins.
Maybe they should have a race with it switched off ? See whos were and decide ?

Surely it the developments of the electronics is were the money is going ?

It may increase the danger but if Rossi is getting paid £20 million a year then he should be prepared to risk his life...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jan 2 2009, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Looking at 125 and 250 to "prove" that strokers serve close racing is not a valid argument.
That wasn't the base of my argument mate.

Read it again: " as there is a real limit as to the extent an engineer can can tame their power delivery. The 500s also demonstrated that they can accommodate several different riding styles."


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jan 2 2009, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2. Introduction of the 4-stroke where just one of many circels added to the cost spiral. And that must again be devided into catagories, where the machine is only one.
Without a doubt, but the machine is the biggest circle...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dion @ Jan 2 2009, 11:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I Think all they have to do is get rid of the electronic rider aids, I believe its that simple.
What is WSBK keeps the TC? WSBK would likely be faster!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jan 2 2009, 07:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That wasn't the base of my argument mate.

Read it again: " as there is a real limit as to the extent an engineer can can tame their power delivery. The 500s also demonstrated that they can accommodate several different riding styles."
Non the less you took the samller clases as examples. That is a good enough argument to me.
Even so, my argument stays: Even if they are easier to tame you still need factory support Besides, I see no reason for why the development costs should drop dramatically. If they all would go into that piles of money would be thrown into direct injection and advanced ECUs with TC included. They just had to start from scratch again.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Without a doubt, but the machine is the biggest circle...

But even so those engines are the main argument for the factories to stay in MotoGP. The link to street bikes are too valuable.

Maybe they should look at ways to limit the cost of the engines but to replace them with 2-stroke engines would be a disaster.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jan 2 2009, 06:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What is WSBK keeps the TC? WSBK would likely be faster!

Your right it would, but does that really matter ? Everyone would know MotoGP had no TC, it would be more exciting straight away.
The best riders trying to tame the toughest bikes.... Bit like 500.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jan 1 2009, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. The two strokes have repeatedly proven that they are amenable to close racing(see 125cc and 250cc today, and the 500cc era), as there is a real limit as to the extent an engineer can can tame their power delivery.

Problems? Honda has historically demonstrated its contempt for the two stroke, from the very beginning with its NR500 project(of which Fukui was intimately involved!). Honda control decisions made in MotoGP to a large extent.

The apparent limit in the tuning and engineering of two stroke engines has come about as the factories are unwilling to put significant time and money into pushing further with reduntant technology. This is the same reason why four strokes were introduced to motogp and why 250 is dead. If the two stroke engine becomes relevant again this limit wont exist because R&D budgets would be similar to now.

As for Honda being a problem, i don't think they'd be alone. Before everyone goes blaming Honda for motogp as it is, they should know that it was Yamaha who initially requested 4 stroke regulations.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dion @ Jan 2 2009, 12:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I Think all they have to do is get rid of the electronic rider aids, I believe its that simple.

I'm not convinced it is that simple, but i could be swayed if you could explain why it is? Also have you any idea why WSBK manages to have exciting racing while still using TC systems to the point that non-factory riders will almost never appear at the front.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Jan 1 2009, 11:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ducati is a very big reason why i follow Moto GP so i wouldn't vote for 2strokes.
I am a huge GP fan and a huge Ducati fan so I would not be in favor of any of that BS. The 2 stroke thing ain't happenin anyway so why bother. The best anyone can do is bring back the 990's and move on. THat makes the series a bit mysterious again with those bikes and how it was with the racing being a bit closer than it is today.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Jan 1 2009, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ducati is a very big reason why i follow Moto GP so i wouldn't vote for 2strokes.

So you've only been a fam of Motogp a few years then...so you're opinions mean ....
<
 
Racing for decades was run on tobacco money. When the EU ruled that tobacco money could not be used to sponsor racing, teams had to look elsewhere and found that no other company was willing to spend on advertising like the tobacco industry.

You had Gauloises w/ Yamaha
You had Camel w/ Honda
Marlboro w/ Ducati (one reason why a small company such as Ducati is still competitive), Yamaha.
Lucky Strike w/ Suzuki.

Same with Formula One. Williams really died when they lost the Rothsman money. Renault in F1 also hurts because of the loss from Camel and later Mild Seven. Jordan GP died when it lost Benson and Hedge.

Big Tobacco ran auto racing for 40-50 years, and now racing is suffering from law prohibiting the cash flow.


4 strokes were brought into the series because that is what the manufacturers were doing with there street bikes. 2 stroke technology was long outdated. MotoGP was ahead of the curve in this move as it took Motocross another 2 years to make the move, and that was manufacturer driven, not rule driven.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayden Fan @ Jan 2 2009, 08:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Williams really died when they lost the Rothsman money.

MotoGP was ahead of the curve in this move as it took Motocross another 2 years to make the move, and that was manufacturer driven, not rule driven.

Williams actually died because Renault removed their engine support.

And the 4 stroke switch in motogp was at the request of the manufacturers also.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayden Fan @ Jan 2 2009, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Big Tobacco

Energy drinks are the new tobacco.

(BTW, I think it was a stupid move to outlaw tobacco. Alcohol, when not used responsibly has destroyed way more lives than smoking.)
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 2 2009, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>(BTW, I think it was a stupid move to outlaw tobacco. Alcohol, when not used responsibly has destroyed way more lives than smoking.)

I agree, Lewis Hamilton has whisky adverts on his visor while he's driving but a cigarette logo is unnaceptable somehow
<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 2 2009, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree, Lewis Hamilton has whisky adverts on his visor while he's driving but a cigarette logo is unnaceptable somehow
<

Holly ...., did we agree on something? Is that your new year's resolution tom? To be smarter?
<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 2 2009, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Energy drinks are the new tobacco.

(BTW, I think it was a stupid move to outlaw tobacco. Alcohol, when not used responsibly has destroyed way more lives than smoking.)


Energy drinks have no where near the money that Phillip Morris has. Red Bull brings in for the year what a tobacco company brings in a year in a large city. Most are only being held alive because of the soda industry.

Agreed on the tobacco/alcohol. You can drink yourself to death in under an hour, but it takes you 30-40 years to kill yourself, and even that is hit and miss.

Jumkie, Tom does say many coherent things, but you have to read beyond what he actually typed.
 
Can we get back to how to save MotoGP rather than talking of the downfall of corparate money in the sport !
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dion @ Jan 2 2009, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Can we get back to how to save MotoGP rather than talking of the downfall of corparate money in the sport !

Uh... that is how you save the sport. You can only cut costs so far, before you make it unexciting and unappealing.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jan 2 2009, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So you've only been a fam of Motogp a few years then...so you're opinions mean ....
<

Yea,i know.I realise some of you guys have followed Moto GP for ages,but from the start i have never been a fan of two strokes.I'm sure the 500's were gave amazing races though.I don't remember having access or i simply didn't hear too much about Moto GP before 2003.So ,i was kind of hoping for Ducati to make something and in 2006 it was like a dream come true until Gibernau decided to be a bowling ball.Stoner has ofcourse made up for that,but it's not the same.
The racing might be good on two strokes because of their nature but i'm more of the simple minded who likes to hear thunder from 990's rather than the sound of bees.
<
 

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