Honda: no spec ECU from 2014

Football time for those that are interested



Honda: no spec ECU from 2014



Tuesday, 16 October 2012 09:23 by Yoko Togashi



NakamotoThe arm wrestling match between Honda and Dorna over the future of Grand Prix racing continues, but the Spanish organizers have bolstered their position thanks to both WSBK and MotoGP now being under their control. Some recent rule changes, including the availability of a Magneti Marelli ECO for all competitors, seem to be leading towards spec electronics in the premier class, but Honda have no intention of letting this happen. HRC vice-president Shuei Nakamoto explains their point of view in this interview:



Q: Tell me the situation of what is going on. We hear that you are against the idea of single ECU and rev. limit which Dorna will enforce from 2014.



N: First of all, I want to make clear that the rumors are only rumors and the situation between me and Carmelo(Ezpeleta) is very good. I am the one who suggested Carmelo to use ECU made by Magneti Manelli to CRT bikes, in order to reduce the difference between prototypes and CRT. Also there is no announcement or what so ever which says single ECU will be enforced to all the bikes from 2014. Also from 2013, it is not compulsory for all the CRT to use this Maneli ECU. They can use it if they want.



Q: But the story says you said Honda will quit MotoGP and go to World Superbike if Dorna enforces single ECU from 2014. Further story is that Bridgepoint gave the right to control both MotoGP and WSB, so you have no where to go.



N: As I said, that won’t be the case, because they will not enforce single ECU from 2014. Dorna must discuss about technical rules with MSMA before a decision is made. We have a five year contract with Dorna(2012-2016) and it has detailed clauses. With this contract, Dorna cannot do anything unless we agree.



Q: I heard you are against the idea of single ECU because you cannot apply the fuel consumption data you have developed with your own system to new ECU.



N: I am against the idea of single ECU because it will not reduce the cost, which is the prime target of Dorna. Using different ECU is like switching to Mackintosh while you are using Microsoft adapted computers for many years. You have to change everything. Many data will be changed automatically but we have to check each of them whether it is correct or not. Also Excel sheet will not work unless you put some numbers and fill the column. These works will take a lot of time and manpower. This will not lead to the reduction of cost.



Q:But the rumors are so big now. Some said Honda will go back to Formula One when you quit MotoGP.



N: That is 100% made up story! I have never said that or I am not in a position to decide such a thing.



Q: Takanobu Itoh, the President of Honda Motor, has announced about the Super-Sports bike. Where does this fit?



N: That is an idea of Super Sports street-bike. It is only in the idea stage at the moment.



Q; Are you still planning to produce a production racer for MotoGP class?



N: At the moment, the idea has been suspended. Carmelo wants us to build them but we need a GO sign from the management of Honda Motor.



Q: But you said the production racer can be introduced from 2014 and you don’t have much time.



N: We can manage if we get the GO sign



Q: Tell me what had happened in Misano.



N: It was very badly organized. It is stated in the rulebook that if the yellow light comes on at the time of the start, you have to make a restart after one minute. But Ducati mechanics started to come back to the grid and put tyre warmers. Dani wasn’t the only one who had tyre warmer when the one minute sign was on. So finally Carmelo apologized Dani as they should not have given him a penalty.



Q: But the result stays as it is.



N: Yes. But Dani is very much focused now.



Q: I hear Dani had a meeting with his staff after the Misano race and told them he will never give up.



N: Yes, I think it is the first time he did such a meeting. He has changed a lot this year. He gained a lot of confidence after he won the race in Indy.



Q: Is it because the RC213V has improved a lot?



N: Yes. Now our bike is better than Yamaha on braking and the acceleration out of corner is also good. Yamaha is a little bit better on cornering stability but we are no so far behind.



Q: Why couldn’t you take off the tyre warmer at the starting grid in Misano?



N: We don’t know. We did many investigations but we couldn’t find the reason. May be something came in between brake disc and pad.



Q: Dani won in Motegi and now Dani is 28 points behind Jorge with three races to go. Do you think you still have the possibility to win the championship?



N: As Dani says, we will try one by one for the remaining three races. Anything can happen in racing and I think Jorge is not yet confident of winning the title. Casey is not yet perfect but he will be very strong in Phillip Island. As we don’t give a team order, Dani must beat Casey in order to win the championship. But at the moment, Dani is very strong and focused. I hope one of the Honda riders would win each of three remaining races.



Q: What do you expect from Marc Marquez next year.



N: At the moment, Dani, Casey and Jorge are living on the different planet. Next year there will be a space on the podium because Casey will retire. We expect Marquez to fill this space. I don’t expect him to win the first race of 2013 but I expect him to be on the podium in Qatar.



Read more: http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/2...-centralina-unica-dal-2014.html#ixzz29URPT7oG

We have a five year contract with Dorna(2012-2016) and it has detailed clauses. With this contract, Dorna cannot do anything unless we agree.



Can anyone elaborate on this. Somebody is talking out of their .... Ezy has led us to beleive that he is no longer bound by MSMA, Nakamoto says not so fast. I guess we know why there wasnt an announcement this past weekend

The sound of horse-trading. Thats what I hear.

Same thing as the raised weight limit. When DORNA proposes rule changes the MSMA must reject by unanimous vote, not majority vote. Ducati will vote for control ECU and therefore it will pass.



What Honda have put forth is a good idea BTW. Att the small CRT teams are all trying to develop electronics independently and they have no hope.



Honda proposed a standard high spec ECU allowing these teams to pool their resources and cut costs but still maintain a high level competition. Effectively a bunch of small teams can band together and become a force. Honda have stated they want more competition not less.



The reality is the small teams wont co-operate because engine suppliers BMW, Aprilia, Kwaka etc want to use their own electronics.



Therefore Ezy will go the control ECU and standard program method. Honda are only going to pull the factory team, not much point in being in a series with a control bore, rev limit, weight limit and control ECU.



The production racing Honda will become a reality, and Honda will make plenty $$$$$ anyway selling them like hotcakes, an unintended consequence.

birdman said:

The reality is the small teams wont co-operate because engine suppliers BMW, Aprilia, Kwaka etc want to use their own electronics.

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That would take them out of being a CRT and into a factory team. They sell the engines outright to the teams. What they do with them from then on is down to them.



Aspar is courting disaster as the 'official' Aprilia CRT team. They are more or less committed to adopting the Aprilia factory line.

But the Aspar team is recognised as basically being an Aprilia factory backed team.

Zootalaws said:

That would take them out of being a CRT and into a factory team. They sell the engines outright to the teams. What they do with them from then on is down to them.



Aspar is courting disaster as the 'official' Aprilia CRT team. They are more or less committed to adopting the Aprilia factory line.

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I would be surprised if NGM Forward pulled the management system off the BMW engine to replace it with their own? That would really be doing it the hard way. Might as well start with what BMW already developed for SBK. No wonder Colin is pissed off.

birdman said:

I would be surprised if NGM Forward pulled the management system off the BMW engine to replace it with their own?

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I wouldn't.



As well as getting the ECU, they are getting the full support of the Marelli ECU team. That is worth millions on its own. No doubt they are already at work replicating the settings they are currently using with the Bosch ECU.



It isn't as hard as you might think. Once they have the engine characteristics plumbed in and have baselined the sensors, then you need to run up some maps that will replicate the engine response they are currently using. From there, it's on to utilise the new functionality.



A lot of work, they need good feedback from the riders, but a lot can be modelled before they even get to have hands on.

But isn't the idea of the control MM ECU to give the CRT bikes more than they have? Why would they just replicate what the currently have in new hardware?



Surely MM will be delivering a system that is ready to bolt in otherwise where is the cost saving if a CRT just has to go and feed it all the detail that they had previously developed? How does that bring everyone forward to catch up to the Factory bikes?

The CRT teams were going to be allowed to adopt the new for 2014 ECU next year if they wanted, giving them a head start for the teams that want it. There is no way of knowing if the ECU will deliver more or less than what they have now without knowing what they have now or what the 2014 ECU will be able to do.

The other good thing about using the Marvel4 is the support it already has, the best comparison I could think of for this is the tablet race from the PC world. If you have an Ipad or android pad there are already thousands of apps available, when Microsoft launch their new tablet it will take a while to catch up. The Marvel4 ECU already has over 120 sensors that can be plugged in and working in unison.

birdman said:

I would be surprised if NGM Forward pulled the management system off the BMW engine to replace it with their own? That would really be doing it the hard way. Might as well start with what BMW already developed for SBK. No wonder Colin is pissed off.

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That's a good one!!



NGM Forward never got to use BMW's "proprietary" system in the first place, bird!!



BMW uses a proprietary system that wasn’t available to the Suter project, so Giussani went in a different direction. BMW wanted to go with the Bosch system, “because they were interested to evaluate the system as well.” So the decision was made in November 2010, long before the Forward Racing project, to use Bosch.



Read more: http://www.sportride...l#ixzz29emuZg6O



I think NGM Forward would be one of the first on the bandwagon!

@ krop :

any news/developments on hondas threat to pull out?

your best guess : will they walk or will they win by somehow getting a foul compromise. read something on your twitter about agreeing if the fuel limit stays but i thought dorna was as supportive of 24L as they are with the ecu?

thanks

Hard to say. Saw a story today (in Italian) that Nakamoto has made a deal: spec ECU but no rev limit. http://www.infomotogp.com/2012/10/motogp-nakamoto-abbassa-le-orecchie-si-alla-centralina-unica/

but what can realistically be gained without rev limits if the 81mm bore is fixed?

any word on the fuel limit?

Kropotkin said:

Hard to say. Saw a story today (in Italian) that Nakamoto has made a deal: spec ECU but no rev limit. http://www.infomotog...ntralina-unica/

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Difficult to know what this means, if true.



If fuel capacity stays at 21L, the sport is basically finished. Fuel efficiency of the engines will be everything. Development spending will spiral out of control, and HRC will extend their competitive advantage as they have done during the previous 'cost-cutting' rules changes. It seems almost inconceivable that Dorna could be ridiculous enough to let it happen now that they have Cecchinelli on staff.



If fuel capacity moves to 24L (as Krops says it will with a spec ECU), the major factory teams will exploit minor hp advantages. The bore limit is not a strict rev limit or a strict horsepower limit b/c major factories can raise the rev ceiling by spending money to reduce friction. Unlike the current fuel economy formula which has exponential rewards for reducing friction, the bore limited formula would merely give manufacturers like Honda and Yamaha a 10-15hp advantage which is almost negligible. However, the 81mm engines will easily make 260hp, and trap speeds will increase drastically as the bikes are redesigned to handle raw acceleration and torque. Without significant reduction in the performance of the control tires, performance would spiral out of control, imo.



Either way, it looks like a spec-ECU w/o a rev limit would have to be part of a major overhaul to the series.

Kropotkin said:

Hard to say. Saw a story today (in Italian) that Nakamoto has made a deal: spec ECU but no rev limit. http://www.infomotog...ntralina-unica/

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MotoSprint (the original source of this article) reports it as a quasi-fact this week.

I always thought that the rev limit was just a negotiation token, as revs are already somehow limited by the 81mm bore.

The control ECU must have been the real goal of Ezpeleta all the time.

I don't dislike the idea at all, it will make for a more leveled field and hopefully put a cap on the endless escalation of electronic aids; it will also help in re-focusing the development effort and investment on more traditional lines -- frame, engine, gearbox, weight balance, etc. while a good ECU becomes a commodity.

Mental Anarchist said:

But isn't the idea of the control MM ECU to give the CRT bikes more than they have? Why would they just replicate what the currently have in new hardware?



Surely MM will be delivering a system that is ready to bolt in otherwise where is the cost saving if a CRT just has to go and feed it all the detail that they had previously developed? How does that bring everyone forward to catch up to the Factory bikes?

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Sorry, missed this.



They need to baseline where they are currently. Because the engine settings have so much influence over the rest of the bike dynamics, otherwise it is really back to square one.



By replicating their existing settings, they then have a baseline that they can then say 'this works/this doesn't work'.



The idea is, as you say, that the new ECU is much better than what they currently have, but they have to start from somewhere otherwise all their existing data goes out the window.

i really hope krops trying to fool us

"Just heard some details of the new rules. Less fuel, no cap on electronics. MotoGP just priced itself out of existence."

and we thought crt was a bad idea. welcome to the official 2 tier system!

http://motomatters.com/news/2012/11...tm_campaign=Feed:+MotoGPMatters+(MotoMatters)



wish they had reduced it to 15-16l so that we could have gotten rid of the msma as a whole

Wow, that's quite a disparity between the factory bikes and the rest. 12 donks vs 5! Those engines with 24 litres will be absolute fire breathers!