Hayden On Traction Control: "Shut It Off"

I fully agree with Hayden and all the older riders.

It seems unless the electronics are limited - preferably disabled altogether - then the younger riders will dominate and all those years of experience controlling 200+HP bikes will count for nothing for the more experienced riders.

I miss the race leader crashing out of a huge lead because he simply lost control of the bike. That doesn't seem to happen anymore, which makes races more predictable and boring.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Mar 28 2008, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>there was plenty of controlled sliding in 2006 but last season it was almost non existent

Well so you are saying TC is not the problem??

in 2006 to 2007 there was little change to TC systems ....... where did the real problem lie then?

I really think the fault lies with the drop in capacity ..... the young guys coming from a non-TC environ are coping with that change better than guys that have bee riding for years on TC'd motogp bikes.

I don't think Hayden will see any great change in form on a non_TC 800 v's a TC'd 800. He's been on TC too long ... amybe it will be hard to change??

Maybe we will find that the younger guys will go even better ...... even Dovi was saying it seems to tame the bike a lot ..... Stoner seems to be riding, with his "odd clutch play", in such a manner as to befuddle TC or at least make its impact less significant ...... Lorenzo ...... went well on a well developed TC system but hasn't said much about it as it would be hard for him to complain about a system set up by one of the all time greats. Toseland ....... I don't know if it matters to this guy yet though he seems the type to adapt to a bike with or without.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 28 2008, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well so you are saying TC is not the problem??

in 2006 to 2007 there was little change to TC systems ....... where did the real problem lie then?

I really think the fault lies with the drop in capacity ..... the young guys coming from a non-TC environ are coping with that change better than guys that have bee riding for years on TC'd motogp bikes.

I don't think Hayden will see any great change in form on a non_TC 800 v's a TC'd 800. He's been on TC too long ... amybe it will be hard to change??

Maybe we will find that the younger guys will go even better ...... even Dovi was saying it seems to tame the bike a lot ..... Stoner seems to be riding, with his "odd clutch play", in such a manner as to befuddle TC or at least make its impact less significant ...... Lorenzo ...... went well on a well developed TC system but hasn't said much about it as it would be hard for him to complain about a system set up by one of the all time greats. Toseland ....... I don't know if it matters to this guy yet though he seems the type to adapt to a bike with or without.

Or could the reason for the quickly adapting youngsters just maybe be that an 800 with traction control and electornic slipper clutch are more alike a 250 without? While an 800 without TC would show it's true nature with peaky power and almost 500cc like power curve?

Where's the sense of a 190cc drop for the "older" guys like Stoner and Pedrosa is more difficult than a 550cc increase for the "young" ones, 250hp -> 230 vs 110 > 230, unless there is a little gizmo in there leveling the field or making it easier if you want.

When dovi said it tamed the bike, or easy to ride as I think his words were, I really don't think he ment he would do better on a bike without TC. First of all it would take some time to learn how to control all the untamed power, more than twice the power he was used to.

sore losers

I can't make up my mind on this one.

Bikes are not cars. The only thing keeping them upright under intense braking, cornering, and acceleration is the rider.

However, I will say I'm disgusted by how big a role setup plays. If you've got the setup right you're in the hunt. If you miss the setup you finish 15 or 20 seconds off the pace.

The reason you are miles off the pace when you get the setup or tires wrong is because TRACTION CONTROL CAN'T WORK WITH THE COMPONENTS! Just typing that makes me cringe.

Why do you think Hayden is so much quicker with it off? Obviously his setup is incompatible with TC (sickening). I'm also disturbed by the fact that rider workouts these days mirror supermodel workouts (cocaine and binging). Will somebody please tell these "athletes" to put on some muscle, or at least get a beer gut like NASCAR drivers.

Because of my allegiances to certain riders, riding styles, and displacements my instincts tell me TC should be banned.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 28 2008, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Where's the sense of a 190cc drop for the "older" guys like Stoner and Pedrosa is more difficult than a 550cc increase for the "young" ones, 250hp -> 230 vs 110 > 230, unless there is a little gizmo in there leveling the field or making it easier if you want.

I'm not sure that equating the power as "everythig" is the way to go ..... I think to win in motogp one must think in a more "holistic" manner.

The final result should be ....... to have the fastest bike ..... thats pretty universally accepted.

And you need guys who can ride "the fastest bikes". And more specifically the guy who can make the bike appear the fastest by getting it around a track the fastest.


Without TC we could have a bike that has lots of power .... but can't get that power to the ground .... so the end result is ...... its a slower bike.

So really it comes down to .... are TC bikes faster ....... again the answer seems pretty much accepted as yes. ( otherwise why don't we see riders not running it ).

It could be argued that brakes are a rider aid too .... seems a funny criteria to impose on such a racing formula as motogp ...... a rule that procludes finding out the fastest guy on the fastest type of bike.

It would be a rule that indicates motogp has the purpose of finding the guy who simply has "the best throttle control" ........ not much of a race to watch in my opinion.

Why stop at just throttle control .... why not get rid of ABS ..... So we will now have a formula that finds the guy with the best brake and throttle control.

How about suspension damping ..... or even suspension ...... ( what if I decided I was old school no suspension!! ) ... we could find the best rider on a bike with no suspension riders aids!!

Steering dampers .... only wusses need them!!

The list goes on ....... every little thing on a motogp bike has been a rider aid .... has helped make the rider/bike go faster ...... why single out TC? Just to find the guy who has good throttle control? .... what if he can't brake for peanuts?

But then manufacturer differences would arise so we would atart wanting a formula that finds the best Rider not package.

I think it wouldn't have a lot of effect if TC was removed in race outcomes .... not at that level .... these guys are there because they can ride bikes ....... TC/ABS/Fuel/Air in tyres/aerodynamically shaped beer gut ...... or not .... they are there because they have pretty much proved they can ride all manners of things.

Its just that in motogp another part of the formula is the "tweaking" of those "things" they ride to get the fastest "thing" out there.

I think if TC was removed it would be just like F1 .....

1 ........ not much change in who's winning .....

2 ....... maybe more crashes ..... so possibly 9 bikes finish like F1 in Melb.s ....... bit boring and cost the teams a lot .....


If you want to test which rider is inherently "the best" motogp is the wrong formula ....it is the most wrong formula really You need a formula with everyone on exactly the same machine under excatly the same conditions.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 28 2008, 01:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not sure that equating the power as "everythig" is the way to go ..... I think to win in motogp one must think in a more "holistic" manner.

The final result should be ....... to have the fastest bike ..... thats pretty universally accepted.

And you need guys who can ride "the fastest bikes". And more specifically the guy who can make the bike appear the fastest by getting it around a track the fastest.


Without TC we could have a bike that has lots of power .... but can't get that power to the ground .... so the end result is ...... its a slower bike.

So really it comes down to .... are TC bikes faster ....... again the answer seems pretty much accepted as yes. ( otherwise why don't we see riders not running it ).

What's your point? That because TC make a faster bike we must have TC?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>It could be argued that brakes are a rider aid too .... seems a funny criteria to impose on such a racing formula as motogp ...... a rule that procludes finding out the fastest guy on the fastest type of bike.

It would be a rule that indicates motogp has the purpose of finding the guy who simply has "the best throttle control" ........ not much of a race to watch in my opinion.
Then inform us what kind of racing are worth watching?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Why stop at just throttle control .... why not get rid of ABS ..... So we will now have a formula that finds the guy with the best brake and throttle control.
ABS?
What pills are you on or what are you smoking?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>How about suspension damping ..... or even suspension ...... ( what if I decided I was old school no suspension!! ) ... we could find the best rider on a bike with no suspension riders aids!!

Steering dampers .... only wusses need them!!

The list goes on ....... every little thing on a motogp bike has been a rider aid .... has helped make the rider/bike go faster ...... why single out TC? Just to find the guy who has good throttle control? .... what if he can't brake for peanuts?
Indeed why, why stop with TC, we should demand compressor charged engines, no fuel amout or type limits, no capacity limits.... I'm sure that would be wonderful for you to watch.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>But then manufacturer differences would arise so we would atart wanting a formula that finds the best Rider not package.

I think it wouldn't have a lot of effect if TC was removed in race outcomes .... not at that level .... these guys are there because they can ride bikes ....... TC/ABS/Fuel/Air in tyres/aerodynamically shaped beer gut ...... or not .... they are there because they have pretty much proved they can ride all manners of things.

Its just that in motogp another part of the formula is the "tweaking" of those "things" they ride to get the fastest "thing" out there.

I think if TC was removed it would be just like F1 .....
Yeah, F1 is so much more boring this year, not. The riders like it, the commentators here are extatic, an yes, the driver has to pay for his own faults. But that's unfair to you, you want the nanny as in MotoGP. Be my guest.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>1 ........ not much change in who's winning .....

2 ....... maybe more crashes ..... so possibly 9 bikes finish like F1 in Melb.s ....... bit boring and cost the teams a lot .....
Not many crashes there but an awful lot of engine failures. Obviously because of the TC.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>If you want to test which rider is inherently "the best" motogp is the wrong formula ....it is the most wrong formula really
Why is that. You said the riders had earned their place but when they finally get there they get the easiest bike to ride in their career. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Well, nothing of this answered any questions asked but it sure was fun. An early weekend start down under?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 28 2008, 12:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why is that. You said the riders had earned their place but when they finally get there they get the easiest bike to ride in their career. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Wow .... you are setting my "anomalie meter off through the roof .....

When I was talking of the feathering the clutch thing on another thread ..... you were suggesting this was not possible on motogp bikes as they are beasts and will high side because they have so much power .... hard to ride ......

bit of an anomalie there


Now I can see now why it doesn't make much sense to you

hayden the git is talking like he was dominating when he was riding the 9990's. hes an average rider at best. hes won what 4 races in 5 years? and at least 3 of them hes been on by far the best bike.

TC or no TC the best riders will still win. and hayden isnt one of them.

just like in F1 still kimi and lewis still on top.

I am seriously wondering a bit here.

Firstly he says 'get rid of TC' (paraphrased) but then menmtions that it is useful to have some electronics when experiencing a problem as one press of a button fixes the problem. What is it to be?

Without the so called 'fix it' button, he can't fix the problem and therefore would he not have worse results?

He seems to be saying that his heart says no TC but his head says keep it.

The article really sounds a bit like a fence sitting exercise and full credit to NH though for saying that he is looking at it purely from a selfish view.





Garry

Is TC really that different in 800cc than it was in 990cc? Or is it more to do with the best way to ride each bike fast?

The 990's were riden more point to point, squaring off the corners and powersliding out of the corner blasting down the next straight section to the next corner, back it in slide it through and blast off down the next straight bit.

The 800cc bike reward high corner speed which gives you a head start on to the straight sections.

If it was faster to power slide 800cc out of corners on to the straights then I am sure that is what you would see.

As there was TC in both bikes I am sure in each it was set up to get the fastest lap time. Would removing it from either make the style of sliding a 990 change or would it make the style of high corner speed of an 800 change? If not then does TC really have that much effect on racing other then to allow all the riders to finish a race rubber side down?

Also if the bikes are so easy to ride then why aren't the legends doing well? Can they only ride a hard to ride bike, fast? This would not make sense. Perhaps in reality the bar has just been lifted higher and the style to get to those heights has changed. Life changes constantly, those that can adapt continue to succeed andthose that can't don't. Doesn't mean that the change is wrong.

What we are seeing is the evolution of MotoGP. Come to think about it that is all we have ever seen in MotoGP - evolution.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Mar 27 2008, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>sore losers

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Mar 27 2008, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>hayden the git is talking like he was dominating when he was riding the 9990's. hes an average rider at best. hes won what 4 races in 5 years? and at least 3 of them hes been on by far the best bike.

TC or no TC the best riders will still win. and hayden isnt one of them.

Hey Pinks, do you have trouble reading or just understanding it?

Did you see this quote?:

"I would probably like (racing without traction control) because I think it would be to my advantage. I'm pretty much looking out for number one, just to be honest with you. I would say I would prefer for them to shut it off.


What in this quote leads you to believe he is being a “sore loser”? He comes right out and tells the discerning reader that he would prefer it off because IT SUITS HIM (“to my advantage”). Does this sound like a guy that is unaware of the implication of his statement and how it would sit with RIDERS that LIKE traction control?

And where did you get the idea that he thinks he was “dominating”? Certainly he was doing better, if you recall who actually was consistently at the front in 06 (unlike some who were consistently in the gravel). What are you worried about, that they will ban TC, don’t worry, Stoner is not aided by TC remember. If the tables had been turned around, and they ban TC, then we see Stoner mid pack, would you be singing another tune? The guy comes right out and is TRANSPARENT about his comments, then you vilify it for being honest? Geez dude, get a grip.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 27 2008, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you want to test which rider is inherently "the best" motogp is the wrong formula ....it is the most wrong formula really You need a formula with everyone on exactly the same machine under excatly the same conditions.
Great point, I agree for a change.

Doesn't worry me one way or the other if they lose TC on the bikes.
But if people think it's going to shake up the whole grid then I have a feeling they may be disappointed. If they think that it will mean 6 riders will go across the finish line together on most occasions, then again they will be disappointed. Storm in a tea cup really.
But if it stops some of the fans from bitching about poor racing because they have nothing else to complain about then yep shut it off.
Watch Qatar again - We had 2 rookies claiming first & second on the grid.
First night race for Motogp
We had at least 15 - 20 overtaking maneuvers from the top 6 guys at the front.

The wheels haven't fallen off the sport if you'll pardon the pun.
Watch a Formula one race and you'll understand how good we have it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Mar 28 2008, 05:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Doesn't worry me one way or the other if they lose TC on the bikes.
But if people think it's going to shake up the whole grid then I have a feeling they may be disappointed. If they think that it will mean 6 riders will go across the finish line together on most occasions, then again they will be disappointed. Storm in a tea cup really.
But if it stops some of the fans from bitching about poor racing because they have nothing else to complain about then yep shut it off.
Watch Qatar again - We had 2 rookies claiming first & second on the grid.
First night race for Motogp
We had at least 15 - 20 overtaking maneuvers from the top 6 guys at the front.

The wheels haven't fallen off the sport if you'll pardon the pun.
Watch a Formula one race and you'll understand how good we have it.
At the risk of being repetitive Stoner himself has said he preferred the 990s. I think what most stoner fans object to (or objected to; I don't think many people are denying stoner credit now) is it being stated as a proven fact rather than a hypothesis that tc is the main reason for his success, and that he unlike any other rider who has won 10 races in a season is not all that good.

Like you I am happy for them to remove tc if it is feasible, and I certainly agree with yamaka that the rider should have to discern his position on the track and decide how much throttle should be applied rather than engineers and a gps device. I also thought the qatar race was pretty good, but then again our guy won.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Mar 27 2008, 09:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Watch Qatar again
I have, several times. The thing that I don't get about this traction control thing is even though all bikes use it (in various degrees of efficiency) I am still impressed with the squirming and twisting Stoner pushes his bike to the limit, even with TC! I'm not rooting for the guy, but damn, check out how he comes out of some corners; the bike protesting like crazy is a thrill (assuming you like motorcycles at the limit). So I do think the racing is still exciting, as I thought it was last year. (Though as a fan of my guy, it’s been a lean year for me, and doesn't look to be getting better, yet). However, I get the concern about the closer "racing" aspect; its certainly closer in the lower classes; why? I think this may not only have to do with the TC, but rather the over-all effect of the whole package and minor variations--that is to say, because the premier class machine can harness a greater performance, any small variation creates an exacerbated deviation in result. At the moment, Stoner-Ducati-Team is super dialed in, and this has translated in a late race-stage gap. I think we will see more ‘close’ racing as development continues, it doesn’t look like the rookies will need much time getting use to the series either.

Kill TC. The riders should control the throttle, not wheel sensors and ECUs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 28 2008, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wow .... you are setting my "anomalie meter off through the roof .....

When I was talking of the feathering the clutch thing on another thread ..... you were suggesting this was not possible on motogp bikes as they are beasts and will high side because they have so much power .... hard to ride ......

bit of an anomalie there


Now I can see now why it doesn't make much sense to you

I didn't say that doing stupid things wouldn't have consequences. Staying away from the clutch while leaned over isn't very hard. Even most road riders manage that.
Another example of stupid things, not to do, would be to lock the front wheel with the brakes into a turn on these ABS free bikes. Opps! Maybe I shouldn't have revealed that technical detail as your next theory might be that stoner lock the front to slide into the turns or is that another anomalie of how hard/easy these bikes are to ride? As in braking without ABS is a new concept for these guys

BTW nice reply. After all you did respond to 1 out 7.