Joined Oct 2008
6K Posts | 5K+
In Cider
Ego speak for:
"I had no vision and therefore I allowed someone else to force their vision with its own motives onto my business. Because their motives were selfish I now look like an ..... and I hope no one notices."
"I had no vision and therefore I allowed someone else to force their vision with its own motives onto my business. Because their motives were selfish I now look like an ..... and I hope no one notices."
The manufacturers have the right to make the technical rules. If they ask for 800cc, they get 800cc. At least, until the contract runs out at the end of 2011. Then they'll have slightly less grip on the rules.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Carmelo is awesome, isn't he? What a politician, when .... goes right, he takes the credit, when .... goes wrong its somebody else's arm twisting fault. Are we suppose to belief he's not a major influence running the show?
I think this one sentance is the biggest problem with the sport, that & Dorna.
The manufacturers are nothing without the sales of thier respective products. Its the fans of the sport that buy these products and keep the manufacturers in business, thus it should be the fans that dictate the rules in accordance with safety legislation & under guidance from the rights owners.
Unfortunatly the manufacturers have turned the sport into a technillogical war between them always trying to out do each other, they dont give a .... about the sport anymore, Dorna have let them get away with it.
The funniest part is that after they have had their way, they have all lost billions in their respective companies yield & financial worth thanks to the stupid decisions & now the sport is in the worst state it has been for some time.
I know this sounds booperish so i will apologise for it now - but thank god for Rossi & what he brings into the sport or we may not be watching motogp anymore.
At the time of the vote (2004 IIRC), I don't recall anyone threatening to leave. There was some discord in the MSMA about whether they should go to 900cc or 800cc. Honda ultimately prevailed with 800cc.
The change to 800cc was a really bad rules decision made in the name of safety. It came about b/c Burgess said the manufacturers were aghast by the 990cc displacement limit. When Kato died, they immediately voted to reduce displacement and chop fuel. The MSMA, IRTA, and the FIM were all united with Dorna as the lone holdout. Dorna voted for 800s b/c they didn't want to rock the boat since technical regulations require unanimous approval. At least Ezy claims that Dorna were reluctant. I'm inclined to believe him. He will attempt to regain control of the sport by writing individual contracts with the manufacturers rather than negotiating with the MSMA as a whole.
Here's what all of this means going forward:
Imo, we are stuck at these bad 81mm 1000cc 21L rules b/c that's the only thing Dorna could ram through with unanimous approval in the GPC. Obviously, Ezy had the FIM and IRTA on his side b/c both of them regret the move to 800cc, but 3-1 isn't good enough to accomplish anything. After a year of negotiations the best Dorna could achieve was a move to 1000cc without an increase in fuel and with a lame bore limit to reduce engine development costs (not sure that's going to work, but whatever).
The big change is that Ezy announced that Dorna will no longer be making deals with the MSMA, but with each individual manufacturer. This is what Bernie started doing during the late 1990s and early 2000s. His strategy was referred to as divide and conquer. It's significant b/c it allows Dorna to buy votes within the MSMA in order to gain greater control over the rulebook without rewriting the rulebook contract between the MSMA and the FIM. For illustrative purposes, let's say Dorna want to return to 24L 990s, and let's assume that the entire MSMA is against it. Under the current arrangement, Dorna have no power. They can sabre rattle and make threats and rally the public against the MSMA, but they can't really do anything to stop the MSMA cartel. Under the new arrangement, Dorna can go to Ducati and Suzuki and offer them more money to vote pro-990. Dorna can offer IRTA a bit more money so IRTA allows a new manufacturer who votes with Dorna (I think that's how it works).
Under the new arrangement (assuming they can get at least 1 Dorna-friendly MSMA member added to the sport) the GPC vote would be unanimous (4-0) in favor of 24L 990s b/c the MSMA (now 5 members) would vote 3-2 in favor of the new rules with Suzuki, Ducati, and (let's say) BMW voting yay; Honda and Yamaha voting nay. Withdrawal of Honda and Yamaha would still be a possible problem. Admittedly, I don't know exactly how MSMA membership and voting rights work, but I pretty sure the gist of what I'm saying is correct. It's standard operating procedure for CVC who owned both F1 and MotoGP commercial rights until 2006 when a Euro court forced CVC to sell. I'm still the basic operating principles are still in place though CVC no longer owns MotoGP's commercial rights.
Joined Oct 2006
3K Posts | 34+
Tar Heel State
And in doing so effectively shot themselves in the foot from my point of view as they have not won a World Championship yet. I say yet, because the line up they have for 2011 could get them the final 800cc WC.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
I don't think that very many riders at all buy due to being a fan of MGP. Otherwise why are Suzuki and Kawasaki still going? Triumph? BMW? Hyosung? Sure it would sway the sales slightly but there are very few riders out there who reallyfolow the sport. And even then that i just the sport bike market.
The "technological warfare" iswhat has been at the heart of MGP in the past, I'd agree its turnng into a ridr oriented series, but that's also whats killing it for some, and had already killed it for many, some years ago.
It's always been rider oriented, but technology and riders were able to peacefully co-exist. Great riders on average machines were still able to accomplish great feats. The balance was drastically altered when the MSMA equipped massive amounts of electronics to curtail wheelspin so they could run softer compounds and more aggressive tire construction in a bid to decrease lap times and fuel consumption. Before 21L 800s, it was unnecessary to intrude on the sporting aspects (the rider aspects) of MotoGP.
If that balance hadn't been upset, we wouldn't be in the hell we are in right now with bore-limited, cylinder limited, fuel limited, engines and a control tire. The balance might never have been upset if they had stopped racing at Suzuka in 2002. Kato's death has snowballed into a FUBAR-version of MotoGP.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Not really, a championship is a championship. But I don't think it will be because of the 800s, rather in spite of the 800s, since its very likely it won't come from the man the formula was suppose to benefit.
Not bopperish because it is easy to think that Rossi has benefited the sport as he has in so many ways. From a purely business and depth of field perspective I think Rossi has hurt the sport. Why? If you are not sponsoring Rossi you are getting a very small percentage of the coverage that you would get compared to having your logo on him. Teams have folded and manufacturers have left the sport because they have not been able to generate sufficient sponsorship. If you were a business who looked at sponsoring the sport for a business result you would do your due diligence. This due diligence would reveal that a huge percentage of the media coverage is on Rossi, that the weight of the corporate entity behind MotoGP is behind Rossi. As Dovi suggested even if Rossi is 5th he gets more coverage than 1st. So if you are Rizla for example and you sponsor Suzuki and your rider wins a race but at no time duels with Rossi during the race then you know for all the money spent your coverage will be minimal. So if you have to sponsor a non Rossi bike then you only pay the value you receive.
Look at 2007 and the lead up to it. Marlboro, Shell and BS sponsor/support Ducati over several years and together develop a package that can run at the front. A young Aussie lands on the bike and upsets the status quo by winning the championship. This was never in the script and damaged the value in TV package sales in Spain and Italy. Immediately, politics steps in and ensures the technical package that a team that was not supposed to win with a rider that was not supposed to win was made available to the 2 riders who were scripted to be the riders fighting for the championship.
What does this political behaviour do to incentivise sponsors to come in and fund the development of a team if when they succeed against the script it will all be taken away.
It is not Rossi's fault but the enigma that Rossi is and has been perpetuated by the likes of Dorna has sucked the money and the life out of the rest of MotoGP. It is my opinion that this is as much to blame as the deficiency in the rules package.
The point is that Pedrosa and Rossi were able to get the same equipment and then one of them beat Stoner. They didn't get better equipment than Stoner. I have no issue with that. I would have an issue if Stoner was given knobblies to compete with for the 2008 year.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
I disagree with this ........ case in point ...... 50's to say when Agostini came in ......... without looking it up ..... name some riders at the top, then name some brands
Actually in thinking about that, you know it must be an italian thing, cos when Ago came about ......... yes I'd say it got rider oriented, then I think Sarinen's death caused a hyatus and we had an era of brand orientation up until around the sheene/roberts stage. But no it hasn't allways been rider oriented at all, and even Sheene and Roberts at the time had heavy dependence/link on their brand affiliation. Folk didn't wear Sheene or Roberts T Shirts or even Ago etc. at the time they had say Suzuki, Yamaha T shirts .......... in every color ........ so long as it was white
No ...... Rossi has brought the "carnival" to Mgp
I disagree with this ........ case in point ...... 50's to say when Agostini came in ......... without looking it up ..... name some riders at the top, then name some brands
Actually in thinking about that, you know it must be an italian thing, cos when Ago came about ......... yes I'd say it got rider oriented, then I think Sarinen's death caused a hyatus and we had an era of brand orientation up until around the sheene/roberts stage. But no it hasn't allways been rider oriented at all, and even Sheene and Roberts at the time had heavy dependence/link on their brand affiliation. Folk didn't wear Sheene or Roberts T Shirts or even Ago etc. at the time they had say Suzuki, Yamaha T shirts .......... in every color ........ so long as it was white
We do see sellers trying to pass off old rider Tshirts ........ which are a total mock up, they are an attempt to cash in on a modern phenomena with past old names. Even Doohan didn't have his actual name on much stuff but there was a few bits and pieces of gear with identifiably Doohan markings.
No ...... Rossi has brought the "carnival" to Mgp
It happens in every sport when a marketable champion appears and everyone tries to jump on board. Look at football, golf, everything. Riding the bike, playing golf, playing football is only a small part of a modern sportsperson's life. Being a modern sportsperson means they are carrying on a business and marketing a brand. They only have a small period of their life (with the exception of golf) to exploit their talent and fame and that is now a business.
People now appoint managers to assist market their brand. The "carnival" is an important part of this and yes Rossi is the one to take it to a whole new level in Motogp. I think that has moved motogp into the 21st century. Lorenzo may be the next one to emulate the success of Rossi's brand building with Lorenzo's Land, flags, cartoons, chuppa chups and so on. That is now modern sport everywhere. Consider how much Tiger Woods earned from winnings v off course endorsements and appearances.
The important point is that it brings more money to the sport. The negative thing is that it becomes more about the brand, the business and less about the championship.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
I'm fully aware that that is how is is these days ........... but my point is that it wasn't always like that.
I disagree with this ........ case in point ...... 50's to say when Agostini came in ......... without looking it up ..... name some riders at the top, then name some brands
Actually in thinking about that, you know it must be an italian thing, cos when Ago came about ......... yes I'd say it got rider oriented, then I think Sarinen's death caused a hyatus and we had an era of brand orientation up until around the sheene/roberts stage. But no it hasn't allways been rider oriented at all, and even Sheene and Roberts at the time had heavy dependence/link on their brand affiliation. Folk didn't wear Sheene or Roberts T Shirts or even Ago etc. at the time they had say Suzuki, Yamaha T shirts .......... in every color ........ so long as it was whiteWe do see sellers trying to pass off old rider Tshirts ........ which are a total mock up, they are an attempt to cash in on a modern phenomena with past old names. Even Doohan didn't have his actual name on much stuff but there was a few bits and pieces of gear with identifiably Doohan markings.
No ...... Rossi has brought the "carnival" to Mgp
You're talking about the cult of personality. I would confuse rider-oriented or rider-centric competition with the cult of personality.
