good read

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 11 2007, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It was just that when Rossi complained that his tyres were not performing as well as in practice and that was the reason for his loss and crash (valencia), you (and i agreed) said that rossi was making fairly poor rationalizations instead of looking to himself. Stoner has now done the same thing but you said he was honest and straight talking, to me it stinks of the same .....

Thanks for cutting through all the crap tom.
If I tried to reply he would, just as in his previous post, assume I was defending Rossi, atacking Stoner. I do neither, just pointing out how he (JK) holds different standards for defferent persons in the padock. If soemthing is said to either discredit rossi, or give credit to Hayden/discredit honda (same thing really) then he fire up the usual conspiracy thing and the wild specualtaions are soooo credible.

Nothing new there either really. It's been developing over some time now, it's just more clear to see nowdays. After all you are a Hayden fan RJ. I respect that, but have a problem to see where you are an ounce more credible than I am. After all we both cheer our own guy and it would take better men to stay 100% neutral in a debate about these guys.
I wish you could accept that instead of continously try to discredit me, and try to put your self in some kind of "shiny armour of truth".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 11 2007, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It was just that when Rossi complained that his tyres were not performing ....

Stoner has now done the same thing but you said he was honest and straight talking, to me it stinks of the same .....

Tom, I'm quoting myself below. Notice I don't give credence to his (Casey's) assertion about what caused his crashes, but rather I say he sheds light about the politics of the sport. This is the quote that Babel uses to highlight the difference between what Casey said and what Rossi said in regards to my take.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I have a few comments and impressions after reading this article.

Casey seems to be an honest guy. Also, it was interesting to note the ........ politics that go on in teams. It seems they were straight lying to the guy about his machine and package. Also, something that caught my eye is when he says, yeah they tell you we want you to win but not "you" to win--I think this sheds some light on the Spanish based/Spanish sponsored/Spanish big voice of Puig in regard to who is the truly the supported rider.

<snip
I'm glad Casey is now in a position to reveal some of this ........ politics, but I'm sure a few will be quick to say he's lying or mistaken.

Notice it doesn't speak of "crashing". What caught my eye in the interview was this notion that even on the same team, the guys don't get the same equipment as I have believed and asserted about the Repsol team.
Babel, in his wisdom, used this take to say I excused Casey for implying that he blamed his tires (which if you read his interview he doesn't say at all but rather the front end of his bike). Nor do I say his blaming the front end is the truth. But rather this notion of politics.

It’s really just a tactic by Babel to blur the lines of debate when frustration sets in that he has not much of a line of reasoning.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 11 2007, 02:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I respect that, but have a problem to see where you are an ounce more credible than I am. After all we both cheer our own guy and it would take better men to stay 100% neutral in a debate about these guys.


I wish you could accept that instead of continously try to discredit me, and try to put your self in some kind of "shiny armour of truth".
Yeah, I agree, we both are fans. But man, when you constantly come out with this apology, like clock work, every post race thread when Rossi gets beat by Casey to make a case about tires/top speed or some variation, then it gets noticed.

You may have noticed a few who use this exact line when Rossi beat Casey. Did you notice it? Well does this stink of ........?

Sorry that the glare of my "shiny armour of truth" gets in your eyes.

Back on topic. The article is interesting when it comes to the part where Stoner talk about his riding style (and Pedrosas).
Just like Capirossi mentioned he rides the bike old fashion big bike style. Dive in, turn it, shoot out. Low mid corner speed high accelleration out.
Make sense in ragards of the difficult power band of the Ducati. No need for fancy traction control and careful mapping as long as the throttle works in two positions, on and off (kind of)

I think this is quite interesting compared to what everyone has been saying so far. "Suits the 250 guys" and it turns out we are all wrong

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 11 2007, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Back on topic. The article is interesting
Not sure which one you are talking about: West or Stoner. The original topic was about West. But Stoner's interview came later in the thread.

Anyway, one thing I also found interesting is this idea of throttle control vs traction control. We sometimes take for granted that the electronics are goin to do all the work, but in reality, its more in the power of the riders' hand (no pund).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jul 11 2007, 11:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tom, I'm quoting myself below. Notice I don't give credence to his (Casey's) assertion about what caused his crashes, but rather I say he sheds light about the politics of the sport.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Casey seems to be an honest guy. Also, it was interesting to note the ........ politics that go on in teams.

With those words you give credit to all what he says in the article, then take particular interest in the politics. However, even that brings out the wrong message as in the article the crash explanations were tightly woven in with the politics. In fact according to Casey as I read it politics were ultimatly the reason for his crashes.

thats what most reades read into that sentence.
However I belive you when you say you wanted to discuss the politics without the crash theories, but it sure didn't sound like that in your first post.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jul 12 2007, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not sure which one you are talking about: West or Stoner. The original topic was about West. But Stoner's interview came later in the thread.
Ah, sorry, of course I was refering to Stoner's interview.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Anyway, one thing I also found interesting is this idea of throttle control vs traction control. We sometimes take for granted that the electronics are goin to do all the work, but in reality, its more in the power of the riders' hand (no pund).
......!

No, seriously I agree. I've been thinking about this for a while and while TC have an impact it might not be as huge as I first thought. Looking at how Rossi were speeding out of the slower curves at assen, the throttle control obviously must be a large factor. Otherwise the rest would do the same and none were close that day.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 11 2007, 03:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>However I belive you when you say you wanted to discuss the politics without the crash theories, but it sure didn't sound like that in your first post.
Fair enough.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>......!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>No, seriously I agree. I've been thinking about this for a while and while TC have an impact it might not be as huge as I first thought. Looking at how Rossi were speeding out of the slower curves at assen, the throttle control obviously must be a large factor. Otherwise the rest would do the same and none were close that day.

Yeah, I see what you are saying. I did notice that at Assen. For me he was dialed in. He did mention that this is one of his favorite tracks, and really that's rider code for: I know traits and nuances about this track that I can use to my advantage in my pocket. Dude, how he was gaining over what was it 3/4 of a sec a lap was astonishing. I heard the commendatory say it so I looked to see where he was gaining, and I think you hit it spot on (for once). Its almost like he turned off TC and relied on his own particular knowledge of the tract and throttle control to produce stunning drives. (Oh yeah, and didn't he also mention giving credit to Mr. Schwantz) for the secrets to the track? haha.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jul 12 2007, 12:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, I agree, we both are fans. But man, when you constantly come out with this apology, like clock work, every post race thread when Rossi gets beat by Casey to make a case about tires/top speed or some variation, then it gets noticed.
Well, I would hate it if it was ignored

Seriously, you tend to overfocus and fight what I suggest by slashing it. If we instead of fighting (yes/no) discuss it you might find that I have other views on the reason why rossi loose or win. As it is right now it's little arguing more black and white.
I could just as well argue that someone must stop those "Rider is everything" guys. Give them some technical facts. After all this is a high tech war against companies as well as a gladiator fight at the track. To give all the credit to the rider when a manufacturer are doing somthing so much better than the others are a grave underestimation of the importance of the equipment. (and it doesn't hurt my guy to point that out. true )

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 11 2007, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To give all the credit to the rider when a manufacturer are doing somthing so much better than the others are a grave underestimation of the importance of the equipment. (and it doesn't hurt my guy to point that out. true )
True. We can discuss that no problem. It’s when we attribute this "technical advantage" as the difference in the result is where the line begins to blur for me. I usually defer to the rider for the benefit of the doubt. Just like I have said, Hayden has underperformed. But knowing all the while that Honda has struggled. I defer first to the responsibility to the rider, and then look to see what advantages or deficiency his machine contributes to his performance. I just think we approach the analysis form opposite directions. And of course, our inherent bias to boot.