Fuel Limits

MotoGP Forum

Help Support MotoGP Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
The argument you are using - was tired, old and unpersuasive long before you ever came around this forum.

If Stoner's mousetrap was so good - why is it that none of his fellow Ducati riders have come

anywhere's close to matching his results? And that includes Rossi - who hasn't done .... on

the Italian mousetrap despite all the money Ducati has put into it; despite having the genius

Burgess at his side, and despite his "LEGENDARY PROWESS AS A DEVELOPER OF BIKES"





Nah Nah - there you go getting all out of balance:



"The argument you are using - was tired, old and unpersuasive long before you ever came around this forum" go check your facts - i was "around" this forum long before CS went to Ducati. Just because you write more posts the - quantity of your stuff doesn't compensate for the frequent lack of quality and accuracy in the content.



"despite all the money Ducati has put into it" - and how much is that compared with the Honda/ Yamaha development spend??????



If you want to believe that Stoner possessed some God-like riding skills in 2007, which allowed him to clinch the title on an "inferior" bike - then go ahead - believe what you want. But then you may have to work out what happened to that capability in 2008 onwards.
 
Nah Nah - there you go getting all out of balance:



"The argument you are using - was tired, old and unpersuasive long before you ever came around this forum" go check your facts - i was "around" this forum long before CS went to Ducati. Just because you write more posts the - quantity of your stuff doesn't compensate for the frequent lack of quality and accuracy in the content.



"despite all the money Ducati has put into it" - and how much is that compared with the Honda/ Yamaha development spend??????



If you want to believe that Stoner possessed some God-like riding skills in 2007, which allowed him to clinch the title on an "inferior" bike - then go ahead - believe what you want. But then you may have to work out what happened to that capability in 2008 onwards.





The amount of money Ducati spent as compared to that of Honda - isn't really relevant. Pointing this out is just a distraction

- and not a very clever one at that.



In the years following 2007 Stoner started to burn out from the stress of continually having to ride around the design defects

of the Ducati chassis, which quite likely was a contributing factor to his bout with chronic fatigue. That said - he still managed

to take more top-of-podium spots than any other rider in the 800 era - while none of the other Ducati riders ever came close

to accruing the number of points that Stoner gained. Those are the facts and they trump any and all opinions you can offer

for the purpose of trying to convince anyone otherwise.



You may have joined in '06 - but your participation has been so scarce that you fall more into

the category of lurker as opposed to member. If that were not so - I wouldn't have to explain

all this old news to you.
 
Then the question must be asked, why is it that it's taken ducati until yesterday to finally provide a chassis that responds to changes predictably?















Is it direction?
 
Then the question must be asked, why is it that it's taken ducati until yesterday to finally provide a chassis that responds to changes predictably?















Is it direction?



It could well be direction but it could also be willingness to listen to direction (which is my personal view).



One thing that every person can agree on is that to ignore the input of Ross/JB is tantamount to motorcycling suicide as they have to many successes to believe that it is luck and not good management. Thus, it is my belief that Ducati are listening to Rossi/JB because they have pedigree, but were unwilling to listen to others because the Ducati brains trust did not value or trust the 'others' input.



This I feel coupled with the increased monies bought to Ducati by Ross/JB means that to not listen would be totally stupid on their part.











Gaz
 
GOOD LORD!



I recall thinking in 2006, this is 1993 all over again. Yamaha had taken a wrong turn in chassis development, and by a third of the way into the season (with Schwantz no longer dogged by inconsistency and for the first time on a competitive Suzuki) instead of wheeling the previous years machine out of a museum somewhere in Italy
<
Rainey was more purposeful and resolute in his actions. He had his engines bolted into an old customer/production Roc frame to combat the stiffness of the original. I'm sure many of the satellite Yamaha's followed suit - if they weren't already using Harris as Naill Macenzie certainly was with WCM. The situation was far from ideal but it was user friendly which enabled him to assail Schwantz's lead in the championship and by Misano - before tragedy struck - he had overhauled him in the standings. Rainey always demonstrated great ingenuity, resourcefulness and a huge tireless work ethic. In some respects Rainey's performance on that factory yamaha which (he became synonymous with) flattered to deceive, as many who rode it after him discovered. Wayne Rainey truly was one of those riders who could transcend limitations in equipment and resources, taking an inferior package and transforming it into a race winner through supernatural talent and self belief. Ptk - if, as you humbly suggest, you don't know enough about Wayne Rainey - grab this book, because no disrespect, atm It'd be equivalent to posting opinions on a contemporary basketball forum without knowing much about Michael Jordan!



Michael Scott Rainey Bio



If you haven't encountered Michael Scott before, like Matt Oxley he's one of the UK's most venerated bike sports writers. That said, it's a very easy quick read.



This brings me to the issue that some of the senior citizens on this forum have been at pains to point out. Throughout his premier class career, Valentino has never been availed with uncompetitive machinery. There are times when the M1 was certainly not the best all round package on the grid, nor the fastest in a straight line, but following the raft of changes in the close season of 2003 -2004 chiefly the long bang/close firing interval motor, it was always capable of winning races in Rossi's supremely talented hands. I can't think of a rider in history who has exercised such a degree of carte blanche towards steering the direction of factory development - and yes I understand to a degree that he has demonstrably earned this. But Vale may as well have arrived at Yamaha with an open cheque book. He certainly benefitted from four engine options tabled by Yoda unavailed to his predecessors.



I have remained largely impartial and unaffiliated in this Rossi/Stoner flame war but must admit find myself gravitating towards Casey's cause of late largely in response to over four years vilification from Rossi Glory Hunters who I differentiate from true fans of the Doctor. I thought Casey's reaction post race Jerez was in comparison to Laguna '08 - measured, amusing and well deployed. The constant allegations of moaning and melodrama I find rich, given Rossi's petulant behaviour over Jorge in his last season at Yamaha. Picture the response should Casey have ever proposed segregating the garage and no longer sharing data in a factory effort because he felt that his team mate was receiving parity in resources and equipment. "It's my ball and I'm taking it home"



As has already been suggested on here, Ducati are not so malleable as Yamaha or even the mighty HRC. IMO Rossi left HRC largely over a dispute over his image rights, not so much the way they placed the importance of machine over rider. Returning to Rainey, it was Valentino's wish to become synonymous with Yamaha - and Ambassador for the marque as Wayne has become, and for that reason I never envisaged him moving to Ducati who he had always likened to HRC in their philosophy of rider vs machine. Ducati are certainly more intransigent.



Over and above the application of these bolt on accessories liberated from the M1, what will tell all is whether Ducati through a monumental and unprecedented paradigm shift, switch to a standard aluminium chassis at the expense of the CF monocoque frame. Gaureschi says no way is this even being entertained - but they abandoned the steel tubular trellis after a lifetime racing which was etched into Ducati's DNA. Now they have to appease the GOAT and his consort, arguably the most experienced crew chief in Grand Prix Racing and who have become used to getting their factory demands. I have no doubt that this is the direction Vale and crew have tried to steer the bike - although entrenched beliefs at Bologna may prove to be as reluctant to turn as the bike is proving to be on track



I would also like to reassert that my opinion is unchanged....I believe that the shoulder injury has eased now allowing Valentino the inputs that he needs to properly evaluate the bike. This injury unquestionably hampered progress in pre season testing. I also believe as the race data piles up Rossi will be able to ride and adapt that machine increasingly in the way he wants (even if Ducati do not yield to all his demands), with Mugello being the possible watershed. Valentino is unquestionably a title protagonist. Forget the M1 in 2004, for the first time he finds himself significantly handicapped and should he challenge for the title this year as I believe he will, this will be the true test and vindication of his superiority. I expect that combination to be indomitable next year.



I might also add that I truly believe CS could jump on that Ducati in its current guise and as it stands outperform Valentino, but the potential that the Desmosedici now has in the hands of Rossi and his crew is frightening. Make of that what you will.
 
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
I recall thinking in 2006, this is 1993 all over again. Yamaha had taken a wrong turn in chassis development, and by a third of the way into the season (with Schwantz no longer dogged by inconsistency and for the first time on a competitive Suzuki) instead of wheeling the previous years machine out of a museum somewhere in Italy
<
Rainey was more purposeful and resolute in his actions. He had his engines bolted into an old customer/production Roc frame to combat the stiffness of the original. I'm sure many of the satellite Yamaha's followed suit - if they weren't already using Harris as Naill Macenzie certainly was with WCM. The situation was far from ideal but it was user friendly which enabled him to assail Schwantz's lead in the championship and by Misano - before tragedy struck - he had overhauled him in the standings. Rainey always demonstrated great ingenuity, resourcefulness and a huge tireless work ethic. In some respects Rainey's performance on that factory yamaha which (he became synonymous with) flattered to deceive, as many who rode it after him discovered. Wayne Rainey truly was one of those riders who could transcend limitations in equipment and resources, taking an inferior package and transforming it into a race winner through supernatural talent and self belief. Ptk - if, as you humbly suggest, you don't know enough about Wayne Rainey - grab this book, because no disrespect, atm It'd be equivalent to posting opinions on a contemporary basketball forum without knowing much about Michael Jordan!



Michael Scott Rainey Bio



If you haven't encountered Michael Scott before, like Matt Oxley he's one of the UK's most venerated bike sports writers. That said, it's a very easy quick read.



This brings me to the issue that some of the senior citizens on this forum have been at pains to point out. Throughout his premier class career, Valentino has never been availed with uncompetitive machinery. There are times when the M1 was certainly not the best all round package on the grid, nor the fastest in a straight line, but following the raft of changes in the close season of 2003 -2004 chiefly the long bang/close firing interval motor, it was always capable of winning races in Rossi's supremely talented hands. I can't think of a rider in history who has exercised such a degree of carte blanche towards steering the direction of factory development - and yes I understand to a degree that he has demonstrably earned this. But Vale may as well have arrived at Yamaha with an open cheque book. He certainly benefitted from four engine options tabled by Yoda unavailed to his predecessors.



I have remained largely impartial and unaffiliated in this Rossi/Stoner flame war but must admit find myself gravitating towards Casey's cause of late largely in response to over four years vilification from Rossi Glory Hunters who I differentiate from true fans of the Doctor. I thought Casey's reaction post race Jerez was in comparison to Laguna '08 - measured, amusing and well deployed. The constant allegations of moaning and melodrama I find rich, given Rossi's petulant behaviour over Jorge in his last season at Yamaha. Picture the response should Casey have ever proposed segregating the garage and no longer sharing data in a factory effort because he felt that his team mate was receiving parity in resources and equipment. "It's my ball and I'm taking it home"



As has already been suggested on here, Ducati are not so malleable as Yamaha or even the mighty HRC. IMO Rossi left HRC largely over a dispute over his image rights, not so much the way they placed the importance of machine over rider. Returning to Rainey, it was Valentino's wish to become synonymous with Yamaha - and Ambassador for the marque as Wayne has become, and for that reason I never envisaged him moving to Ducati who he had always likened to HRC in their philosophy of rider vs machine. Ducati are certainly more intransigent.



Over and above the application of these bolt on accessories liberated from the M1, what will tell all is whether Ducati through a monumental and unprecedented paradigm shift, switch to a standard aluminium chassis at the expense of the CF monocoque frame. Gaureschi says no way is this even being entertained - but they abandoned the steel tubular trellis after a lifetime racing which was etched into Ducati's DNA. Now they have to appease the GOAT and his consort, arguably the most experienced crew chief in Grand Prix Racing and who have become used to getting their factory demands. I have no doubt that this is the direction Vale and crew have tried to steer the bike - although entrenched beliefs at Bologna may prove to be as reluctant to turn as the bike is proving to be on track



I would also like to reassert that my opinion is unchanged....I believe that the shoulder injury has eased now allowing Valentino the inputs that he needs to properly evaluate the bike. This injury unquestionably hampered progress in pre season testing. I also believe as the race data piles up Rossi will be able to ride and adapt that machine increasingly in the way he wants (even if Ducati do not yield to all his demands), with Mugello being the possible watershed. Valentino is unquestionably a title protagonist. Forget the M1 in 2004, for the first time he finds himself significantly handicapped and should he challenge for the title this year as I believe he will, this will be the true test and vindication of his superiority. I expect that combination to be indomitable next year.



I might also add that I truly believe CS could jump on that Ducati in its current guise and as it stands outperform Valentino, but the potential that the Desmosedici now has in the hands of Rossi and his crew is frightening. Make of that what you will.



Absolutely Brilliant Arrab. As Usual



I do have a query though as to one point, I believe I've read that Masao had the engine choices in development well before they signed Rossi in 2003, in reaction to all riders gripes about their screamer, and their abysmal season in 2003. Whilst Rossi benefited most from the development in 2004, I remember Furwasawa stating that these engines were being sorted well before Rossi was on board. Whilst the donks were unavailed to others they would have been there for riders in 2004 if Rossi had signed or not.



I also would like your comments on Stoners latest towing antics......
 
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
Then the question must be asked, why is it that it's taken ducati until yesterday to finally provide a chassis that responds to changes predictably?















Is it direction?

It is always on here first, j4rno and lex were on to this a while ago, that ducati corse would use the impetus of valentino and jb to set up as a proper manufactory rather than cobble the bikes together individually in an artisanal fashion. I gather this has always been a problem for the number 2 factory rider and satellite teams, thay haven't even been able to provide the number 1 factory rider with 2 similar race bikes reliably in the past.
 
It is always on here first, j4rno and lex were on to this a while ago, that ducati corse would use the impetus of valentino and jb to set up as a proper manufactory rather than cobble the

bikes together individually in an artisanal

fashion. I gather this has always been a

problem for the number 2 factory rider

and satellite teams, thay haven't even

been able to provide the number 1

factory rider with 2 similar race bikes

reliably in the past.



it's all very Italian
 
I do have a query though as to one point, I believe I've read that Masao had the engine choices in development well before they signed Rossi in 2003, in reaction to all riders gripes about their screamer, and their abysmal season in 2003. Whilst Rossi benefited most from the development in 2004, I remember Furwasawa stating that these engines were being sorted well before Rossi was on board. Whilst the donks were unavailed to others they would have been there for riders in 2004 if Rossi had signed or not.



I also would like your comments on Stoners latest towing antics......

I have never read that myself, and my impression was that the four options were only tabled for Valentino. Given the direction - or lack of direction that the M1 screamer was aimlessly careering it would, I concede, be naive to suppose that an alternative firing order hadn't been explored, and it's quite possible that these options would have been avialable in 04 irrespective whether they had signed Valentino. What is unequivocal however is that the budget commitment and scale wouldn't have been availed without Rossi's signature. That said, I would also add that even given the revised firing order any other rider and crew would have struggled and it's doubtful that the M1 would have been transformed into the potent weapon that it became in the speed that it was without the arrival of Valentino and JB.



Regarding Casey, I thought his response at Jerez was superb, if anything understated (uncharacteristic for CS) - but very acerbic. That was all that needed to be said and he should have left it there. I didn't construe the Estoril qualifying incident to be over the fact that Casey thought Rossi was trying to get a tow - conversely I interpreted it as Casey offering Vale a tow, calling a pet dog to heel. To be honest I think that Casey should do his talking on the race track. He distances himself from the media and shuns the accolades associated with stardom - we know that he hates the publicity, so he should perhaps retain his dignity and regard such cheap shots as beneath him and also concentrate on avoiding the negative publicity he courts. It simply doesn't become him, and I thought if anything it made him look a bit daft. If he wants to liken Rossi to a pet dog, he's very likely going to end up bitten on the .... That said, I wish the likes of Max and Sete had shown a bit more spunk, currently along with Jorge - it's good to see someone standing up to The Doctors mind games at last - at Estoril, I just wish he's gone about it in a less peurile manner. Then again Rossi himself isn't immune to peurile jibes, perhaps that's the language he understands. Ok he was a kid, but remember the inflatable doll aimed at Max, or more recently the chair he took with him onto the podium at Sepang in '06 to mock the injured Pedrosa?
 
[quote name='Arrabbiata1' timestamp='1304416684' post='277537']

That was all that needed to be said and he should have left it there. I didn't construe the Estoril qualifying incident to be over the fact that Casey thought Rossi was trying to get a tow - conversely I interpreted it as Casey offering Vale a tow, calling a pet dog to heel. /quote]

That was pretty much my interpretation, or that he was suggesting rossi might want to make a pass from that far back. Might have been a good idea to go on to win the race if he was going to do it as you say.
 
The amount of money Ducati spent as compared to that of Honda - isn't really relevant. Pointing this out is just a distraction

- and not a very clever one at that.



In the years following 2007 Stoner started to burn out from the stress of continually having to ride around the design defects

of the Ducati chassis, which quite likely was a contributing factor to his bout with chronic fatigue. That said - he still managed

to take more top-of-podium spots than any other rider in the 800 era - while none of the other Ducati riders ever came close

to accruing the number of points that Stoner gained. Those are the facts and they trump any and all opinions you can offer

for the purpose of trying to convince anyone otherwise.



You may have joined in '06 - but your participation has been so scarce that you fall more into

the category of lurker as opposed to member. If that were not so - I wouldn't have to explain

all this old news to you.





The Gospel according to St Kesh



halleluja !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



"In the years following 2007 Stoner started to burn out from the stress of continually having to ride around the design defects of the Ducati chassis, which quite likely was a contributing factor to his bout with chronic fatigue. Those are the (KESHAV'S) facts and they trump any and all opinions you can offer"



And it's all TRUE because Keshav says so



Amen
 
The amount of money Ducati spent as compared to that of Honda - isn't really relevant. Pointing this out is just a distraction

- and not a very clever one at that.



In the years following 2007 Stoner started to burn out from the stress of continually having to ride around the design defects

of the Ducati chassis, which quite likely was a contributing factor to his bout with chronic fatigue. That said - he still managed

to take more top-of-podium spots than any other rider in the 800 era - while none of the other Ducati riders ever came close

to accruing the number of points that Stoner gained. Those are the facts and they trump any and all opinions you can offer

for the purpose of trying to convince anyone otherwise.



You may have joined in '06 - but your participation has been so scarce that you fall more into

the category of lurker as opposed to member. If that were not so - I wouldn't have to explain

all this old news to you.





Interseting viewpoint:



"The amount of money Ducati spent as compared to that of Honda - isn't really relevant. Pointing this out is just a distraction

- and not a very clever one at that."



So the Racer-Photographer-Businessman is now telling us that the amount of money spent on development is not relevant - wonder which one is talking?



Uuuuhhh - maybe somebody - probably Keshav should point that out to other manufacturers - Suzi, Kwak, Aprili, BMW and we coulf get back to a 25 - 30 bike grid.
 
Interseting viewpoint:



"The amount of money Ducati spent as compared to that of Honda - isn't really relevant. Pointing this out is just a distraction

- and not a very clever one at that."



So the Racer-Photographer-Businessman is now telling us that the amount of money spent on development is not relevant - wonder which one is talking?



Uuuuhhh - maybe somebody - probably Keshav should point that out to other manufacturers - Suzi, Kwak, Aprili, BMW and we coulf get back to a 25 - 30 bike grid.



<
 
The Gospel according to St Kesh



halleluja !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



"In the years following 2007 Stoner started to burn out from the stress of continually having to ride around the design defects of the Ducati chassis, which quite likely was a contributing factor to his bout with chronic fatigue. Those are the (KESHAV'S) facts and they trump any and all opinions you can offer"



And it's all TRUE because Keshav says so



Amen



It's a reasonable conjecture - one shared by lots of folks. Nothing more.

Why do you feel so threatened by it?
 

Recent Discussions

Recent Discussions

Back
Top