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Well I guess there's many ways to look at it:



Rossi didn't win 2006 - for a lot of reasons and I'd say mostly his own fault - distractions, and ...........................

Now for 2007 if anyone wants to argue that the CS Ducati was a .... bike, then they're going to have to accept that everything else on the grid was SUPER-.... - aka .... squared.

Now - how about if Rossi had been on the Duc in 2007 with JB doing what he does well - then maybe 2008/ 09 would also have been Duc years and by 2010 Rossi would have left MotoGP. Just the thought - who would catch the crap from about half of our members if he wasn't around



But - really this hypothetical regurgitation of history along the what could have been if........... just sucks



When we go to 1000cc the old rule that the top riders get the best bikes and most support will (rightly) continue in MotoGP just like the pecking order is in every other sport.



And just to round it off - there are 3 real aliens out there in 2011 - Rossi, Lollo and Stoner (choose the order)

Pedro is ImO an alienette and Nicky - well it's been a while since he's been at the front and I think 2006 made him more of a "sure hand Luke" than an alien



LOL
laugh.gif
Good post and may I ask you formal permission to use the word ALIENETTE? That's just great.
cool.gif




As a (rare) Rossi and Stoner fan, and a longtime Ducatista, I had to defend Stoner throughout 2007 insisting that Stoner was riding in an incredible way and that he was to be credited fully for winning that title. Now, curiously, I have to (try to) make people reason when they say that Ducati has always been a ..... bike in GP, and that it won in 2007 only because of Stoner's miraculous powers.



Extreme views are usually wrong: of course Stoner's contribution was paramount and undeniable, but hey, wake up -- not even JC can win on a bike that does not have some technical edge in some key areas.



Ducati had marked technical advantages in 2007: 1. Engine power 2. Tires 3. Electronics -- and disadvantages that we now know better in 1. Steering 2. Narrow rpm useful range 3. Radically different design from any mainstream Jap bike, making it a difficult to understand beast for riders.



Now we know that Stoner, thanks to his unique (in GP) style of controlling the bike with the throttle and the rear brake, could make the bike turn quickly keeping the engine revving high and so was able to adapt and exploit the other advantages fully. Other riders (Capirossi and Barros in 2007) had trouble. Would Rossi (or the Lorenzo of today) have won in 2007 on the Ducati? I think probably yes. But it's speculation of course. Would the Alienette have won? Probably not. So I agree we have 3 Aliens and one Alienette.
smile.gif




If Stoner was really capable of winning titles on '......' bikes (IMO nobody can at this level) then he would have continued winning the title in 2008, 2009, 2010 etc. for eternity. Still he won many races even when Ducati gradually lost much of his advantage (without improving enough in the other areas where it was lacking) , and that is testimony of the incredible rider he is and to his unique (so far) adaptation to the Ducati Desmosedici.



Rossi is coming to grips with it. He is not as fast as Stoner in adapting, and was coming out of a nightmare 2010, but hes' now almost ok physically so watch out for that #46 Ducati in the coming races, and not because it will become a torpedo as in Jerez...
wink.gif




I feel almost sorry for all those who have spent so many words on the end of Rossi, on his inability to ride the Ducati fast, and blahh blah.... They should have waited issuing all those wishful verdicts.
tongue.gif
 
I feel almost sorry for all those who have spent so many words on the end of Rossi, on his inability to ride the Ducati fast, and blahh blah.... They should have waited issuing all those wishful verdicts.
tongue.gif



Yes but their reactions will be a source of immense amusement
<
 
LOL
laugh.gif
Good post and may I ask you formal permission to use the word ALIENETTE? That's just great.
cool.gif




As a (rare) Rossi and Stoner fan, and a longtime Ducatista, I had to defend Stoner throughout 2007 insisting that Stoner was riding in an incredible way and that he was to be credited fully for winning that title. Now, curiously, I have to (try to) make people reason when they say that Ducati has always been a ..... bike in GP, and that it won in 2007 only because of Stoner's miraculous powers.



Extreme views are usually wrong: of course Stoner's contribution was paramount and undeniable, but hey, wake up -- not even JC can win on a bike that does not have some technical edge in some key areas.



Ducati had marked technical advantages in 2007: 1. Engine power 2. Tires 3. Electronics -- and disadvantages that we now know better in 1. Steering 2. Narrow rpm useful range 3. Radically different design from any mainstream Jap bike, making it a difficult to understand beast for riders.



Now we know that Stoner, thanks to his unique (in GP) style of controlling the bike with the throttle and the rear brake, could make the bike turn quickly keeping the engine revving high and so was able to adapt and exploit the other advantages fully. Other riders (Capirossi and Barros in 2007) had trouble. Would Rossi (or the Lorenzo of today) have won in 2007 on the Ducati? I think probably yes. But it's speculation of course. Would the Alienette have won? Probably not. So I agree we have 3 Aliens and one Alienette.
smile.gif




If Stoner was really capable of winning titles on '......' bikes (IMO nobody can at this level) then he would have continued winning the title in 2008, 2009, 2010 etc. for eternity. Still he won many races even when Ducati gradually lost much of his advantage (without improving enough in the other areas where it was lacking) , and that is testimony of the incredible rider he is and to his unique (so far) adaptation to the Ducati Desmosedici.



Rossi is coming to grips with it. He is not as fast as Stoner in adapting, and was coming out of a nightmare 2010, but hes' now almost ok physically so watch out for that #46 Ducati in the coming races, and not because it will become a torpedo as in Jerez...
wink.gif




I feel almost sorry for all those who have spent so many words on the end of Rossi, on his inability to ride the Ducati fast, and blahh blah.... They should have waited issuing all those wishful verdicts.
tongue.gif



That was awesome man
<




I might go hang out in the "official drunk thread" now haha.
 
LOL
laugh.gif
Good post and may I ask you formal permission to use the word ALIENETTE? That's just great.
cool.gif




As a (rare) Rossi and Stoner fan, and a longtime Ducatista, I had to defend Stoner throughout 2007 insisting that Stoner was riding in an incredible way and that he was to be credited fully for winning that title. Now, curiously, I have to (try to) make people reason when they say that Ducati has always been a ..... bike in GP, and that it won in 2007 only because of Stoner's miraculous powers.



Extreme views are usually wrong: of course Stoner's contribution was paramount and undeniable, but hey, wake up -- not even JC can win on a bike that does not have some technical edge in some key areas.



Ducati had marked technical advantages in 2007: 1. Engine power 2. Tires 3. Electronics -- and disadvantages that we now know better in 1. Steering 2. Narrow rpm useful range 3. Radically different design from any mainstream Jap bike, making it a difficult to understand beast for riders.



Now we know that Stoner, thanks to his unique (in GP) style of controlling the bike with the throttle and the rear brake, could make the bike turn quickly keeping the engine revving high and so was able to adapt and exploit the other advantages fully. Other riders (Capirossi and Barros in 2007) had trouble. Would Rossi (or the Lorenzo of today) have won in 2007 on the Ducati? I think probably yes. But it's speculation of course. Would the Alienette have won? Probably not. So I agree we have 3 Aliens and one Alienette.
smile.gif




If Stoner was really capable of winning titles on '......' bikes (IMO nobody can at this level) then he would have continued winning the title in 2008, 2009, 2010 etc. for eternity. Still he won many races even when Ducati gradually lost much of his advantage (without improving enough in the other areas where it was lacking) , and that is testimony of the incredible rider he is and to his unique (so far) adaptation to the Ducati Desmosedici.



Rossi is coming to grips with it. He is not as fast as Stoner in adapting, and was coming out of a nightmare 2010, but hes' now almost ok physically so watch out for that #46 Ducati in the coming races, and not because it will become a torpedo as in Jerez...
wink.gif




I feel almost sorry for all those who have spent so many words on the end of Rossi, on his inability to ride the Ducati fast, and blahh blah.... They should have waited issuing all those wishful verdicts.
tongue.gif





How the hell do you dream up this bullcrap
<




WHat were these advantages? especially the electronics
<
 
How the hell do you dream up this bullcrap
<




WHat were these advantages? especially the electronics
<



Just chucking it out there baz, were you at phillip island in 2007? The sound of that duke with the traction control kicking in over lukey heights was ....... awesome. Whatever they were doing with it was working
<
 
How the hell do you dream up this bullcrap
<




WHat were these advantages? especially the electronics
<



They had. Electronics is not only TC, btw. Their fuel injection control system was such in 2007 that the Japanese were stunned at the way they could extract so much power from the desmo with 21 liters, and finish the races.



Regarding bullcrap... I do not mind people using these words, if they can back them up with some solid ideas or views. Where are yours?
<
 
LOL
laugh.gif
Good post and may I ask you formal permission to use the word ALIENETTE? That's just great.
cool.gif




Ducati had marked technical advantages in 2007: 1. Engine power 2. Tires 3. Electronics -- and disadvantages that we now know better in 1. Steering 2. Narrow rpm useful range 3. Radically different design from any mainstream Jap bike, making it a difficult to understand beast for riders.

We have discussed this ad infinitum. The ducati 2007 was a championship capable bike, it won the championship. QED.



Loris capirossi, unlucky to lose the championship the year before won one race on the bike, in a wet race where stoner only needed to finish in front of rossi to clinch the championship, having been the undisputed number one rider leading into the season, exactly why? Valentino rossi finds the power delivery of the current bigbang (rather than screamer) ducati with 4 years of electronic advancements, hobbled though the electronics techs doubtless were by stoner, too aggressive, can't replicate stoner's technique for getting the ducati through the corners, but would have won on the 2007 screamer ducati. I find myself joining jumkie on the dark side.



Stoner obviously can never approach rossi overall, but it is barely possible he did get it together for 1 year before his character was generally assassinated (at the age of 21) to do something extraordinary, on a bike which may have peculiarly suited him. Until someone else, with or without more resources, wins a second championship for ducati I think this is a reasonable working hypothesis.
 
That would be the yellow-eye-filter point of view; rather like saying that every other rider in the competition must have been .... the year Lance Armstrong won despite having cancer.



The more balanced view is that Stoner won because he was so brilliant at riding around the idiosyncrasies of the Ducati.





Balanced point of view ????? Stoner is great and .............. - Hardly the case. I think I'll ad-lib a Jumkie line here and point out that the Mouse-Trap does indeed play a very significant role. Stoner is indisputably a good rider and in that season had the best Mouse-Trap - together they won the WC - that I believe is balanced
 
LOL
laugh.gif
Good post and may I ask you formal permission to use the word ALIENETTE? That's just great.
cool.gif




As a (rare) Rossi and Stoner fan, and a longtime Ducatista, I had to defend Stoner throughout 2007 insisting that Stoner was riding in an incredible way and that he was to be credited fully for winning that title. Now, curiously, I have to (try to) make people reason when they say that Ducati has always been a ..... bike in GP, and that it won in 2007 only because of Stoner's miraculous powers.



Extreme views are usually wrong: of course Stoner's contribution was paramount and undeniable, but hey, wake up -- not even JC can win on a bike that does not have some technical edge in some key areas.



Ducati had marked technical advantages in 2007: 1. Engine power 2. Tires 3. Electronics -- and disadvantages that we now know better in 1. Steering 2. Narrow rpm useful range 3. Radically different design from any mainstream Jap bike, making it a difficult to understand beast for riders.



Now we know that Stoner, thanks to his unique (in GP) style of controlling the bike with the throttle and the rear brake, could make the bike turn quickly keeping the engine revving high and so was able to adapt and exploit the other advantages fully. Other riders (Capirossi and Barros in 2007) had trouble. Would Rossi (or the Lorenzo of today) have won in 2007 on the Ducati? I think probably yes. But it's speculation of course. Would the Alienette have won? Probably not. So I agree we have 3 Aliens and one Alienette.
smile.gif




If Stoner was really capable of winning titles on '......' bikes (IMO nobody can at this level) then he would have continued winning the title in 2008, 2009, 2010 etc. for eternity. Still he won many races even when Ducati gradually lost much of his advantage (without improving enough in the other areas where it was lacking) , and that is testimony of the incredible rider he is and to his unique (so far) adaptation to the Ducati Desmosedici.



Rossi is coming to grips with it. He is not as fast as Stoner in adapting, and was coming out of a nightmare 2010, but hes' now almost ok physically so watch out for that #46 Ducati in the coming races, and not because it will become a torpedo as in Jerez...
wink.gif




I feel almost sorry for all those who have spent so many words on the end of Rossi, on his inability to ride the Ducati fast, and blahh blah.... They should have waited issuing all those wishful verdicts.
tongue.gif





Hey there - like your post - good stuff



".....................and may I ask you formal permission to use the word ALIENETTE? That's just great. "



PLEASE DO - THE MORE WHO USE IT THE BETTER
 
Balanced point of view ????? Stoner is great and .............. - Hardly the case. I think I'll ad-lib a Jumkie line here and point out that the Mouse-Trap does indeed play a very significant role. Stoner is indisputably a good rider and in that season had the best Mouse-Trap - together they won the WC - that I believe is balanced

Please list championships won by riders with inferior mousetraps; use multiple pages if needed.



Wayne rainey and krjr spring to mind more than any of rossi's championships to me.
 
Please list championships won by riders with inferior mousetraps; use multiple pages if needed.



Wayne rainey and krjr spring to mind more than any of rossi's championships to me.





Why would I want to do that - after I've just made that the point that Stoner - an undisputably good rider - won the 2007 championship - on a bike that was certainly in that season a superior mousetrap????? Like Balanced



As far as I can remember Rossi has never ridden an inferior mousetrap. At times his ride (especially in the Yamaha years) has not always been the best on the grid, but he and especially JB have done a great job of fixing that.



I would agree with you about KRJR on the Suzi, but that was after Mick had left and Criville was (already) sick - the top two riders on the Honda. No detraction from KRJR, but after the one WC there was no consistency.



Don't know enough about Wayne Rainey, but since "winning riders on inferior mousetraps" does seem to be your penchant - maybe you can enlighten me and some of our other members
 
Why would I want to do that - after I've just made that the point that Stoner - an undisputably good rider - won the 2007 championship - on a bike that was certainly in that season a superior mousetrap????? Like Balanced



As far as I can remember Rossi has never ridden an inferior mousetrap. At times his ride (especially in the Yamaha years) has not always been the best on the grid, but he and especially JB have done a great job of fixing that.



I would agree with you about KRJR on the Suzi, but that was after Mick had left and Criville was (already) sick - the top two riders on the Honda. No detraction from KRJR, but after the one WC there was no consistency.



Don't know enough about Wayne Rainey, but since "winning riders on inferior mousetraps" does seem to be your penchant - maybe you can enlighten me and some of our other members

I said inferior mousetraps. The converse of this is not necessarily a superior mousetrap; very many world championships have been won by riders on mousetraps closely equivalent to those of their competititors, including most of rossi's championships, and we will never know to what extent the superior straight-line performance of the ducati was counterbalanced by the superior handling of the yamaha.Your underlying argument is the same as is usually the case, ie that rossi can't be outridden; in truth this is not a bad argument, but is still not axiomatic.



The yamaha chassis was so bad in one of rainey's championship years that I think he went and found another on his own. I only watched the races on TV then, there being no internet and zero media coverage in austtralia at the time. People like arrabbiata are more informed about the specifics.
 
The yamaha chassis was so bad in one of rainey's championship years that I think he went and found another on his own. I only watched the races on TV then, there being no internet and zero media coverage in autstralia at the time. People like arrabbiata are more informed about the specifics.

I recall thinking in 2006, this is 1993 all over again. Yamaha had taken a wrong turn in chassis development, and by a third of the way into the season (with Schwantz no longer dogged by inconsistency and for the first time on a competitive Suzuki) instead of wheeling the previous years machine out of a museum somewhere in Italy
<
Rainey was more purposeful and resolute in his actions. He had his engines bolted into an old customer/production Roc frame to combat the stiffness of the original. I'm sure many of the satellite Yamaha's followed suit - if they weren't already using Harris as Naill Macenzie certainly was with WCM. The situation was far from ideal but it was user friendly which enabled him to assail Schwantz's lead in the championship and by Misano - before tragedy struck - he had overhauled him in the standings. Rainey always demonstrated great ingenuity, resourcefulness and a huge tireless work ethic. In some respects Rainey's performance on that factory yamaha which (he became synonymous with) flattered to deceive, as many who rode it after him discovered. Wayne Rainey truly was one of those riders who could transcend limitations in equipment and resources, taking an inferior package and transforming it into a race winner through supernatural talent and self belief. Ptk - if, as you humbly suggest, you don't know enough about Wayne Rainey - grab this book, because no disrespect, atm It'd be equivalent to posting opinions on a contemporary basketball forum without knowing much about Michael Jordan!



Michael Scott Rainey Bio



If you haven't encountered Michael Scott before, like Matt Oxley he's one of the UK's most venerated bike sports writers. That said, it's a very easy quick read.



This brings me to the issue that some of the senior citizens on this forum have been at pains to point out. Throughout his premier class career, Valentino has never been availed with uncompetitive machinery. There are times when the M1 was certainly not the best all round package on the grid, nor the fastest in a straight line, but following the raft of changes in the close season of 2003 -2004 chiefly the long bang/close firing interval motor, it was always capable of winning races in Rossi's supremely talented hands. I can't think of a rider in history who has exercised such a degree of carte blanche towards steering the direction of factory development - and yes I understand to a degree that he has demonstrably earned this. But Vale may as well have arrived at Yamaha with an open cheque book. He certainly benefitted from four engine options tabled by Yoda unavailed to his predecessors.



I have remained largely impartial and unaffiliated in this Rossi/Stoner flame war but must admit find myself gravitating towards Casey's cause of late largely in response to over four years vilification from Rossi Glory Hunters who I differentiate from true fans of the Doctor. I thought Casey's reaction post race Jerez was in comparison to Laguna '08 - measured, amusing and well deployed. The constant allegations of moaning and melodrama I find rich, given Rossi's petulant behaviour over Jorge in his last season at Yamaha. Picture the response should Casey have ever proposed segregating the garage and no longer sharing data in a factory effort because he felt that his team mate was receiving parity in resources and equipment. "It's my ball and I'm taking it home"



As has already been suggested on here, Ducati are not so malleable as Yamaha or even the mighty HRC. IMO Rossi left HRC largely over a dispute over his image rights, not so much the way they placed the importance of machine over rider. Returning to Rainey, it was Valentino's wish to become synonymous with Yamaha - and Ambassador for the marque as Wayne has become, and for that reason I never envisaged him moving to Ducati who he had always likened to HRC in their philosophy of rider vs machine. Ducati are certainly more intransigent.



Over and above the application of these bolt on accessories liberated from the M1, what will tell all is whether Ducati through a monumental and unprecedented paradigm shift, switch to a standard aluminium chassis at the expense of the CF monocoque frame. Gaureschi says no way is this even being entertained - but they abandoned the steel tubular trellis after a lifetime racing which was etched into Ducati's DNA. Now they have to appease the GOAT and his consort, arguably the most experienced crew chief in Grand Prix Racing and who have become used to getting their factory demands. I have no doubt that this is the direction Vale and crew have tried to steer the bike - although entrenched beliefs at Bologna may prove to be as reluctant to turn as the bike is proving to be on track



I would also like to reassert that my opinion is unchanged....I believe that the shoulder injury has eased now allowing Valentino the inputs that he needs to properly evaluate the bike. This injury unquestionably hampered progress in pre season testing. I also believe as the race data piles up Rossi will be able to ride and adapt that machine increasingly in the way he wants (even if Ducati do not yield to all his demands), with Mugello being the possible watershed. Valentino is unquestionably a title protagonist. Forget the M1 in 2004, for the first time he finds himself significantly handicapped and should he challenge for the title this year as I believe he will, this will be the true test and vindication of his superiority. I expect that combination to be indomitable next year.



I might also add that I truly believe CS could jump on that Ducati in its current guise and as it stands outperform Valentino, but the potential that the Desmosedici now has in the hands of Rossi and his crew is frightening. Make of that what you will.
 
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I recall thinking in 2006, this is 1993 all over again. Yamaha had taken a wrong turn in chassis development, and by a third of the way into the season (with Schwantz no longer dogged by inconsistency and for the first time on a competitive Suzuki) instead of wheeling the previous years machine out of a museum somewhere in Italy
<
Rainey was more purposeful and resolute in his actions. He had his engines bolted into an old customer/production Roc frame to combat the stiffness of the original. I'm sure many of the satellite Yamaha's followed suit - if they weren't already using Harris as Naill Macenzie certainly was with WCM. The situation was far from ideal but it was user friendly which enabled him to assail Schwantz's lead in the championship and by Misano - before tragedy struck - he had overhauled him in the standings. Rainey always demonstrated great ingenuity, resourcefulness and a huge tireless work ethic. In some respects Rainey's performance on that factory yamaha which (he became synonymous with) flattered to deceive, as many who rode it after him discovered. Wayne Rainey truly was one of those riders who could transcend limitations in equipment and resources, taking an inferior package and transforming it into a race winner through supernatural talent and self belief. Ptk - if, as you humbly suggest, you don't know enough about Wayne Rainey - grab this book, because no disrespect, atm It'd be equivalent to posting opinions on a contemporary basketball forum without knowing much about Michael Jordan!



Michael Scott Rainey Bio



If you haven't encountered Michael Scott before, like Matt Oxley he's one of the UK's most venerated bike sports writers. That said, it's a very easy quick read.



This brings me to the issue that some of the senior citizens on this forum have been at pains to point out. Throughout his premier class career, Valentino has never been availed with uncompetitive machinery. There are times when the M1 was certainly not the best all round package on the grid, nor the fastest in a straight line, but following the raft of changes in the close season of 2003 -2004 chiefly the long bang/close firing interval motor, it was always capable of winning races in Rossi's supremely talented hands. I can't think of a rider in history who has exercised such a degree of carte blanche towards steering the direction of factory development - and yes I understand to a degree that he has demonstrably earned this. But Vale may as well have arrived at Yamaha with an open cheque book. He certainly benefitted from four engine options tabled by Yoda unavailed to his predecessors.



I have remained largely impartial and unaffiliated in this Rossi/Stoner flame war but must admit find myself gravitating towards Casey's cause of late largely in response to over four years vilification from Rossi Glory Hunters who I differentiate from true fans of the Doctor. I thought Casey's reaction post race Jerez was in comparison to Laguna '08 - measured, amusing and well deployed. The constant allegations of moaning and melodrama I find rich, given Rossi's petulant behaviour over Jorge in his last season at Yamaha. Picture the response should Casey have ever proposed segregating the garage and no longer sharing data in a factory effort because he felt that his team mate was receiving parity in resources and equipment. "It's my ball and I'm taking it home"



As has already been suggested on here, Ducati are not so malleable as Yamaha or even the mighty HRC. IMO Rossi left HRC largely over a dispute over his image rights, not so much the way they placed the importance of machine over rider. Returning to Rainey, it was Valentino's wish to become synonymous with Yamaha - and Ambassador for the marque as Wayne has become, and for that reason I never envisaged him moving to Ducati who he had always likened to HRC in their philosophy of rider vs machine. Ducati are certainly more intransigent.



Over and above the application of these bolt on accessories liberated from the M1, what will tell all is whether Ducati through a monumental and unprecedented paradigm shift, switch to a standard aluminium chassis at the expense of the CF monocoque frame. Gaureschi says no way is this even being entertained - but they abandoned the steel tubular trellis after a lifetime racing which was etched into Ducati's DNA. Now they have to appease the GOAT and his consort, arguably the most experienced crew chief in Grand Prix Racing and who have become used to getting their factory demands. I have no doubt that this is the direction Vale and crew have tried to steer the bike - although entrenched beliefs at Bologna may prove to be as reluctant to turn as the bike is proving to be on track



I would also like to reassert that my opinion is unchanged....I believe that the shoulder injury has eased now allowing Valentino the inputs that he needs to properly evaluate the bike. This injury unquestionably hampered progress in pre season testing. I also believe as the race data piles up Rossi will be able to ride and adapt that machine increasingly in the way he wants (even if Ducati do not yield to all his demands), with Mugello being the possible watershed. Valentino is unquestionably a title protagonist. Forget the M1 in 2004, for the first time he finds himself significantly handicapped and should he challenge for the title this year as I believe he will, this will be the true test and vindication of his superiority. I expect that combination to be indomitable next year.



I might also add that I truly believe CS could jump on that Ducati in its current guise and as it stands outperform Valentino, but the potential that the Desmosedici now has in the hands of Rossi and his crew is frightening. Make of that what you will.

Well said.
 
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We have discussed this ad infinitum. The ducati 2007 was a championship capable bike, it won the championship. QED.



Loris capirossi, unlucky to lose the championship the year before won one race on the bike, in a wet race where stoner only needed to finish in front of rossi to clinch the championship, having been the undisputed number one rider leading into the season, exactly why? Valentino rossi finds the power delivery of the current bigbang (rather than screamer) ducati with 4 years of electronic advancements, hobbled though the electronics techs doubtless were by stoner, too aggressive, can't replicate stoner's technique for getting the ducati through the corners, but would have won on the 2007 screamer ducati. I find myself joining jumkie on the dark side.



Stoner obviously can never approach rossi overall, but it is barely possible he did get it together for 1 year before his character was generally assassinated (at the age of 21) to do something extraordinary, on a bike which may have peculiarly suited him. Until someone else, with or without more resources, wins a second championship for ducati I think this is a reasonable working hypothesis.



Yes, these speculations are useless. We will never know. But I do not think the real problem is the screamer vs big bang -- even Battaini who is not an alien liked the screamer better and said its does have some advantages. BarryMachine would agree...
<
Exploiting a bike's potential advantages in actual race situations -- again, that's the key. Stoner so far is the only rider to have won dry races (many) on the Desmosedici, and until Rossi does (repeatedly) the same, he's the one and only.
<
 
I would also like to reassert that my opinion is unchanged....I believe that the shoulder injury has eased now allowing Valentino the inputs that he needs to properly evaluate the bike. This injury unquestionably hampered progress in pre season testing. I also believe as the race data piles up Rossi will be able to ride and adapt that machine increasingly in the way he wants (even if Ducati do not yield to all his demands), with Mugello being the possible watershed. Valentino is unquestionably a title protagonist. Forget the M1 in 2004, for the first time he finds himself significantly handicapped and should he challenge for the title this year as I believe he will, this will be the true test and vindication of his superiority. I expect that combination to be indomitable next year.



I might also add that I truly believe CS could jump on that Ducati in its current guise and as it stands outperform Valentino, but the potential that the Desmosedici now has in the hands of Rossi and his crew is frightening. Make of that what you will.

There is no reason at all why rossi should have lost his riding talent if his shoulder injury is not permanently disabling, and unless ducati are particularly intransigent or honda come up with a fusion drive there is every reason for rossi to be the favourite for next year, as I along with you have always said. They may well get it together in time to be in it this year as you say. Stoner whatever else he may be is not stupid, and I am sure realises this, which I imagine makes it even more galling to be taken out unnecessarily as he was, when he was fairly clearly prepared to let rossi go. Rossi being given all sorts of resources that he wasn't also galls him as he has openly said; whether he would have been able to do anything with such resources is another question of course.



But complaints about stoner being rude to poor valentino.....please!
 
Balanced point of view ????? Stoner is great and .............. - Hardly the case. I think I'll ad-lib a Jumkie line here and point out that the Mouse-Trap does indeed play a very significant role. Stoner is indisputably a good rider and in that season had the best Mouse-Trap - together they won the WC - that I believe is balanced



The argument you are using - was tired, old and unpersuasive long before you ever came around this forum.

If Stoner's mousetrap was so good - why is it that none of his fellow Ducati riders have come

anywhere's close to matching his results? And that includes Rossi - who hasn't done .... on

the Italian mousetrap despite all the money Ducati has put into it; despite having the genius

Burgess at his side, and despite his "LEGENDARY PROWESS AS A DEVELOPER OF BIKES"
 
I said inferior mousetraps. The converse of this is not necessarily a superior mousetrap; very many world championships have been won by riders on mousetraps closely equivalent to those of their competititors, including most of rossi's championships, and we will never know to what extent the superior straight-line performance of the ducati was counterbalanced by the superior handling of the yamaha.Your underlying argument is the same as is usually the case, ie that rossi can't be outridden; in truth this is not a bad argument, but is still not axiomatic.



The yamaha chassis was so bad in one of rainey's championship years that I think he went and found another on his own. I only watched the races on TV then, there being no internet and zero media coverage in austtralia at the time. People like arrabbiata are more informed about the specifics.

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"Your underlying argument is the same as is usually the case, ie that rossi can't be outridden" - don't know whose post you've been reading, but this is a claim thay I have never made _ in fact VR has been outridden on a number of occasions - one notable one being Elias at Estoril in NH's title year. VR's claim to fame is that in his career to date he has consistently outridden most of his competition and on a selection of rides. How well he will do on the Ducati - will be seen.

Anyway - thanks for prodding Arrabiata on Rainey - his posting is 1st class.
 
Michael Scott Rainey Bio



Thanks - 1st class informative post - and I agree with all your VR comments.

I'm looking for the book - hope I can get an on-line edition.
 
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