Fuel Limits

I have long contested that GP is about the mousetrap first then the rider. Yet many have made the assessment about riders based purely on results without the caveat of meaningful and profound analysis. The evidence is always there, but is routinely ignored. Even here, on a technical topic its exposed the realities of man verse limits relegated to the rider, how much more can we imagine in terms of politics, something more elusive to pin?



As you read this article Motomatters.com, ask yourself, are fuel limits relevant in formulating who are the greatest racers?



LINK



A few interesting highlights of the above article:

[Regarding fuel limits and mapping] One significant effect of this decision was to somewhat obsolete much of Ducati's existing fuel mapping data for the ensuing season. Rumored to be extraordinarily specific to each venue...

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Ducati, in particular were effected...







An example of how it effected Nicky Hayden in 2010

Beginning with Lap 10, Hayden immediately averaged about .2 second per lap slower for the next 12 laps. During this 12-lap middle "stint"



Apparently escaping the notice of everyone outside of his team's garage, on Lap 22 Hayden rather suddenly "recovered" about 1 second (about the pace he maintained during the first stint of the race).



"So what?" you say. "Two tenths here, four tenths there… he just didn't have the pace…" One fairly remarkable trait about Nicky Hayden is his ability to run laps in very tight groups; with lap times often showing only small variances from one to the next.



The net result left Nicky Hayden with the dubious distinction of owning the two most visible fuel shortages in the 800cc era (to date).

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In the last year of 990 era, Nicky Hayden was a regular podium finisher, using today's standards; you could even say he was an "alien". Enter the 800 era, and suddenly, under the relegation of Pedro's tester he became a mid-packer (not in ability as a rider but quarantined by the parameters of his duties to the factory). In 2010, he started to show life, a consistent front-runner, even still one could offset his results, afterall; he was still on a Ducati. Enter 2011; suddenly that consistent front-runner at least in terms of top 5, is now a mid-to-lower packer? History repeating itself. He again is testing and quarantined by the duties assigned to him by the factory. I contend, he has been cheated out of a more brilliant GP career because he's had the dubious distinction of being teammates to the two top darlings of the sport.

...engines would need to be re-worked during the first practice sessions of each race weekend in 2010.



...What is plainly evident is the role free practice sessions play in fuel-map settings. Riders and teams speak of setting up their bikes, and most of us still assume they are talking about things like suspensions and tire pressures. But, in reality, these mechanical settings are slaves to the work of the programmers and data techs, because changes in power delivery and fuel usage have significant effect on handling dynamics and weight balance. If there isn't sufficient practice time...

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Suddenly for 2011, it was announced there would be more practice time....what changed?



As I said above, given privy to data coupled with meaningful analysis, one can find the effects and far reaching ramifications to rider's careers that certain nominal conditions have on them, one can only imagine the corollary implications and detriments of more illusive less visible effects of backroom politics that most of us understand happen in all organizations, particularly in the sport of GP.

Have you and Lex been hanging out?



EDIT: Without me?

Austin said:

Have you and Lex been hanging out?



EDIT: Without me?

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If only ducati would use laser sparkplugs!

http://gizmodo.com/#!5794073/your-new-cars-engine-will-work-with-lasers-not-spark-plugs

Jumkie said:

In the last year of 990 era, Nicky Hayden was a regular podium finisher, using today's standards; you could even say he was an "alien". Enter the 800 era, and suddenly, under the relegation of Pedro's tester he became a mid-packer (not in ability as a rider but quarantined by the parameters of his duties to the factory).

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The reason Hayden was a regular podium finisher back then is there was no Lorenzo in 2006 and Stoner and Pedrosa were inexperienced rookies in their first year of MotoGp.

bigbang said:

The reason Hayden was a regular podium finisher back then is there was no Lorenzo in 2006 and Stoner and Pedrosa were inexperienced rookies in their first year of MotoGp.

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Possibly....2012 with the return of the larger displacement bikes might change the pecking order, might not, I for one can't wait!

bigbang said:

The reason Hayden was a regular podium finisher back then is there was no Lorenzo in 2006 and Stoner and Pedrosa were inexperienced rookies in their first year of MotoGp.

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Maybe my memory is failing, but wasn't the really fast guy in 2006 - Capi on the 990 Duc until Gibbers axed him.

Nicky as an alien - hmmm for me he's more like AC-DC or that big furry thing that sniffed around in Starwars - good supporting rider

bigbang said:

The reason Hayden was a regular podium finisher back then is there was no Lorenzo in 2006 and Stoner and Pedrosa were inexperienced rookies in their first year of MotoGp.

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Is that why Doohan & Rossi won all his titles too? No Lorenzo, Stoner, and Pedro?





Bigbang (assuming you got your name from with the event that sparked all understanding) & Ptk, seems you boys are having difficulty understanding the article. Big words, charts, etc.

L8Braker said:

Possibly....2012 with the return of the larger displacement bikes might change the pecking order, might not, I for one can't wait!

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Sorry L8, what don't you understand about "fuel limit"?

Jumkie said:

Is that why Rossi won all his titles too? No Lorenzo, Stoner, and Pedro?

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Well Rossi did win against them in 2008 and 2009 but Lorenzo was still an inexperienced rookie, the other two had problems with the bike plus injuries.

IMO Rossi was lucky that during the 2001-2005 period the level of competition was nowhere near like today. Gibernau, Capirossi, Melandri etc aren't Lorenzo, Stoner and Pedro. It was then that he amassed most of his titles and it was then the Rossi legend was born. Let's put it this way: Rossi is very good but so are the other 3 aliens.

bigbang said:

Well Rossi did win against them in 2008 and 2009 but Lorenzo was still an inexperienced rookie, the other two had problems with the bike plus injuries.

IMO Rossi was lucky that during the 2001-2005 period the level of competition was nowhere near like today. Gibernau, Capirossi, Melandri etc aren't Lorenzo, Stoner and Pedro. It was then that he amassed most of his titles and it was then the Rossi legend was born. Let's put it this way: Rossi is very good but so are the other 3 aliens.

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I agree with most of this, except that the fast "alien" (Stoner) was quarantined on a "...." bike. (I suppose it depends on how you look at the current situation, its either the Ducati to blame for Rossi's poor performance, in other words, would Rossi have won in 08/09 on a Ducati).



In relation to this topic, again it begs the question, are titles partly a product of simply having the best? If you are willing to relegate Hayden as a 2nd tier rider (ignoring the gist of the above article) then I suppose there is no point in arguing the advantages of being on the best equipment with the added benefit of rules suddenly changing in one's favor.

Jumkie said:

Sorry L8, what don't you understand about "fuel limit"?

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True, my fierce loyalty to Hayden made me respond before actualy remembering the fuel limits are still in place for the new regs.

L8Braker said:

True, my fierce loyalty to Hayden made me respond before actualy remembering the fuel limits are still in place for the new regs.

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1000cc will probably not fundamentally change the sport, but it could change the pecking order and make things more interesting. Yamaha supposedly have 500rpm fewer peak revs than the Honda due to the engine restrictions. No telling where Ducati stand. Suzuki had special rules written b/c they can't meet the engine restrictions.



When they move to 1000cc, the engine rules should have less impact on the competition.

Jumkie said:

I agree with most of this, except that the fast "alien" (Stoner) was quarantined on a "...." bike. (I suppose it depends on how you look at the current situation, its either the Ducati to blame for Rossi's poor performance, in other words, would Rossi have won in 08/09 on a Ducati).



In relation to this topic, again it begs the question, are titles partly a product of simply having the best? If you are willing to relegate Hayden as a 2nd tier rider (ignoring the gist of the above article) then I suppose there is no point in arguing the advantages of being on the best equipment with the added benefit of rules suddenly changing in one's favor.

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Well I guess there's many ways to look at it:



Rossi didn't win 2006 - for a lot of reasons and I'd say mostly his own fault - distractions, and ...........................

Now for 2007 if anyone wants to argue that the CS Ducati was a .... bike, then they're going to have to accept that everything else on the grid was SUPER-.... - aka .... squared.

Now - how about if Rossi had been on the Duc in 2007 with JB doing what he does well - then maybe 2008/ 09 would also have been Duc years and by 2010 Rossi would have left MotoGP. Just the thought - who would catch the crap from about half of our members if he wasn't around



But - really this hypothetical regurgitation of history along the what could have been if........... just sucks



When we go to 1000cc the old rule that the top riders get the best bikes and most support will (rightly) continue in MotoGP just like the pecking order is in every other sport.



And just to round it off - there are 3 real aliens out there in 2011 - Rossi, Lollo and Stoner (choose the order)

Pedro is ImO an alienette and Nicky - well it's been a while since he's been at the front and I think 2006 made him more of a "sure hand Luke" than an alien

ptk50 said:

Well I guess there's many ways to look at it:



Rossi didn't win 2006 - for a lot of reasons and I'd say mostly his own fault - distractions, and ...........................

Now for 2007 if anyone wants to argue that the CS Ducati was a .... bike, then they're going to have to accept that everything else on the grid was SUPER-.... - aka .... squared.

Now - how about if Rossi had been on the Duc in 2007 with JB doing what he does well - then maybe 2008/ 09 would also have been Duc years and by 2010 Rossi would have left MotoGP. Just the thought - who would catch the crap from about half of our members if he wasn't around



But - really this hypothetical regurgitation of history along the what could have been if........... just sucks



When we go to 1000cc the old rule that the top riders get the best bikes and most support will (rightly) continue in MotoGP just like the pecking order is in every other sport.



And just to round it off - there are 3 real aliens out there in 2011 - Rossi, Lollo and Stoner (choose the order)

Pedro is ImO an alienette and Nicky - well it's been a while since he's been at the front and I think 2006 made him more of a "sure hand Luke" than an alien

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That would be the yellow-eye-filter point of view; rather like saying that every other rider in the competition must have been .... the year Lance Armstrong won despite having cancer.



The more balanced view is that Stoner won because he was so brilliant at riding around the idiosyncrasies of the Ducati.

ptk50 said:

And just to round it off - there are 3 real aliens out there in 2011 - Rossi, Lollo and Stoner (choose the order)

Pedro is ImO an alienette and Nicky - well it's been a while since he's been at the front and I think 2006 made him more of a "sure hand Luke" than an alien

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'What we have here is a failure to communicate'

ptk50 said:

Well I guess there's many ways to look at it:



Rossi didn't win 2006 - for a lot of reasons and I'd say mostly his own fault - distractions, and ...........................

Now for 2007 if anyone wants to argue that the CS Ducati was a .... bike, then they're going to have to accept that everything else on the grid was SUPER-.... - aka .... squared.

Now - how about if Rossi had been on the Duc in 2007 with JB doing what he does well - then maybe 2008/ 09 would also have been Duc years and by 2010 Rossi would have left MotoGP. Just the thought - who would catch the crap from about half of our members if he wasn't around



But - really this hypothetical regurgitation of history along the what could have been if........... just sucks



When we go to 1000cc the old rule that the top riders get the best bikes and most support will (rightly) continue in MotoGP just like the pecking order is in every other sport.



And just to round it off - there are 3 real aliens out there in 2011 - Rossi, Lollo and Stoner (choose the order)

Pedro is ImO an alienette and Nicky - well it's been a while since he's been at the front and I think 2006 made him more of a "sure hand Luke" than an alien

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The ability of you guys to hold diametrically opposite views on the same subject, sometimes almost simultaneously,astounds me. Why don't you just simplify your posts to "rossi good, stoner bad (no matter what he does)".

michaelm said:

The ability of you guys to hold diamterically opposite views on the same subject, sometimes almost simultaneously,astounds me. Why don't you just simplify your posts to "rossi good, stoner bad (no matter what he does)".

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The most effective time-saving device of the last two decades. Give that man a

Nobel Prize.

Stoner quoted as decrying the current fuel limit and asking for 24 litre limit on motomatters.

ptk50 said:

Well I guess there's many ways to look at it:



Rossi didn't win 2006 - for a lot of reasons and I'd say mostly his own fault - distractions, and ...........................

Now for 2007 if anyone wants to argue that the CS Ducati was a .... bike, then they're going to have to accept that everything else on the grid was SUPER-.... - aka .... squared.

Now - how about if Rossi had been on the Duc in 2007 with JB doing what he does well - then maybe 2008/ 09 would also have been Duc years and by 2010 Rossi would have left MotoGP. Just the thought - who would catch the crap from about half of our members if he wasn't around



But - really this hypothetical regurgitation of history along the what could have been if........... just sucks



When we go to 1000cc the old rule that the top riders get the best bikes and most support will (rightly) continue in MotoGP just like the pecking order is in every other sport.



And just to round it off - there are 3 real aliens out there in 2011 - Rossi, Lollo and Stoner (choose the order)

Pedro is ImO an alienette and Nicky - well it's been a while since he's been at the front and I think 2006 made him more of a "sure hand Luke" than an alien

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In your dreams, Rossi can't even ride the bike Stoner won several races on towrds the end of 2010. Seeing as though Capi was crap on the 07 why do you presuppose Rossi would be any better than Capi was back then



So far the bike has gone backwards on the Duc. and Rossi is a "so so" rider on it.



Rossi is just going the same way as "all the other riders" on the Duc. ......... until such time as he does do something creditable on it you are way off track



I'd agree with bigbang Rossi had no real competition until Pedro, Stoner, and Lorenzo got there. Hayden too was a breath of fresh air in a series that needed some talent. ( and by talent I mean those who have talent greater than their ambitions )

Jumkie said:

'What we've got here is a failure to communicate'

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Fixed it Sorry, big Gn'R fan...



After reading the excelent article I read all the comments that followed. The comment below was the one I found most poignant.

Submitted by Hagetaka on Wed, 2011-04-27 20:13.



As many people have pointed out, it is actually not the fuel economy at partial throttle "data" that is keeping the fuel limits around. Limiting fuel keeps expensive electronics in, and small companies out. After all, why worry about out competing small companies, when you can just outspend them.

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