I am refering to the message in the first post from "OP" of this theard which is coming out of Ducati most recently.
Ducati will not build a Yamaha 'clone'
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I am refering to the message in the first post from "OP" of this theard which is coming out of Ducati most recently.
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Well I've seen some talented ....... do some pretty amazing .... on high heels.
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I don't have any problem with them yamaha-ising the ducati if this was achievable, adding the historically almost always strong ducati engine to a bike with the handling of the recent yamahas would be a rather good idea. As you and others including presiozi/guareschi are saying this current design with the L4, carbon fibre non-chassis etc can't be turned into a yamaha though, so they are obviously trying to make the current design handle better and particularly to improve the front end stability , and they would be remiss if they were not trying to do this. If they (as in rossi and jb) can immediately turn around the ducati which is of such different design to their previous experience even as a stoner fan I will have to acknowledge their genius, with the proviso that ducati have now tacitly admitted there is a problem with the bike which I am not aware of them doing previously.
I am not sure whether the carbon fibre, chassis philosophy or engine configuration are fundamentally flawed; certainly the 2009 bike which was carbon fibre/frame-less seemed fine when stoner was healthy. There was obviously a problem with last year's bike, but ducati have been known to mis-step previously including the start of 2008 when they were also reputedly trying to make the ducati more nimble, and one year with the ducati 990 if I recall. I do recall rossi whilst pushing for improved engine performance wanting yamaha to stick to their overall design philosophy even in 2007 though, and I am not sure any of the ducati motogp bikes have been notably good-handling. I still think the bridgestone tyre the ducati 800 was designed around no longer being available may be a factor; whatever else applies the window within which the thing operates is obviously narrow.
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Actually in 2007 Rossi said Yamaha should perhaps switch to a V architecture, to which Furusawa responded it wasn't necessary -- and in fact the following year they were able to improve power and reliability of their IL4 enough to win the title.
The question now, for Yamaha, is whether their development peak has been reached and the increasing power gap with the others is still compensated/compensable by the better handling alone.
While it is impossible to Yamaha-ize the Ducati, they will undoubtely Rossi-fy it. That means better handling, at least to the extent the Ducati design will allow. Will it be enough? We can only wait and see.
I don't remember rossi calling for a V4, but you are undoubtedly better informed amongst other things about matters rossi than I am. I do recall him applying a cattle prod to yamaha to increase their engine performance, and I guess a V4 was looking the way to go for that at the time, before perfecting the pneumatic version of the IL4 engine and in particular its fuel economy addressed the power issue at least temporarily. I think I am right in saying that he wished to continue to develop the yamaha to be a well balanced good handling bike, rather than developing the type of extreme bike the 2007 ducati appeared to be and probably was, although the magic electronics aspect of that bike was probably overstated.
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Surely so. The 2007 Ducati had the most advanced electronics, and the most powerful engine, along with tyres that perfectly suited it; and in Stoner had the fastest rider as well, the only one capable to exploit those advantages. Now that he is riding the Ducati, Valentino no doubt has an even better perception of Stoner's talent.
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It did? I thought they were using the same electronics as Yamaha and Kawasaki in 2007? And wasn't the Yamaha system the one with the most computational power? Or was that in 2008, I don't remember. EDIT: nevermind, same ECU as Yamaha in 2007. Google is my friend...
Of course, the real difference that could be made was in the programming rather than the kit, I guess.
I think it is fair to say that presiozi et al may have realised a different design approach was possible using the more modern electronics and applied this to advantage, whether or not they had better programming (it was rumoured they had help from ferrari); what resulted was something fast but extreme and difficult to employ rather than a bike which rode itself, the widely prevalent view at the time. At the moment it is looking as though this initial success led ducati into a developmental cul de sac or even a dead-end, pending the results of the rossi/jb tweaking currently underway.
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I don't know. Ducati had the best fuel management system for some time. And more engine power than the Honda for somewhat longer, and Yamaha longer still.
But when you think of things TC, anti-wheelie and the like, I don't think they had anything better than the other Magnetti Marelli users. You might be on to something with the different design approach, but I would interpret it somewhat differently. I'd say the advanced electronics saved an otherwise not really competitive frame for Ducati. However, Yamaha had access to the same electronics AND a better frame. My point being that Ducati may not have so much gained an advantage over Yamaha, but tried to fix the inherent flaws in the design of their bike.
What I do remember however is both Preziosi and Stoner claiming frequent software updates, as that was a cheap way of developing the bike.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Ducati and it was (and still is) a competitive bike in my view.
I think that they were able to run aggressive engine characteristics, the screamer, aerodynamics allowing high straight line speed etc more than would have been possible prior to the advanced electronics. The trellis frame chassis was widely held to be obsolescent as you say, even in 2007.
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Forgive me, I'm going to play pedantic ........ here...
I agree that the electronics probably allowed them to run an aggressive engine. But given that Yamaha had the same ECU, they could have gone that direction as well. Of course Ducati had an engine advantage in 2007, no arguing there. But I think it's misleading to say they had an electronics advantage.
I get your point though, Ducati made better use of the same electronics package by going for the desmo screamer.
Ah, there's nothing as satisfying as being a neurotic nitpicker once in a while, hehe...
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Yamaha could have gone for a more aggressive engine, but it would have meant leaving the I4 for a V4. Furasawa made the decision to stay with the I4, managing to get enough power to be competitive with the L4 of the Duke and the V4 of the Honda, partly due to the smoothness of the I4 power delivery and partly due to the nimble handling of the Yamaha chassis. This makes the point somewhat moot IMO.
I'm not trying to say that Ducati had an electronics advantage though. They did have an advantage in 2007 given the bike / aggressive engine power delivery / electronics package they went for, and that advantage was Stoner
We don't really disagree.
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Ducati with their trellis frame. Hahahhaa what a joke. The Ducati frame looks like Bubba Buckshot welded it with left over 1" tubular bars in the wooden shack.
