Ducati Dropping Out of WSBK ?

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Ducati can race a twin, win races and championships with it. Like he said, just one year ago, a phenomonon known as Spies had one of, if not the best years ever, and it still came down to Haga not being able to mentally handle the challenge. Having Aprilia around soothes the burn of Ducati leaving. They will be missed, but are not irreplaceable, at least not to me.



And by the way, WSBK is still an air restricted series with a max cylinder count.



He's hiding behind the performance indexing rules. They are poorly conceived rules that should have no reason to exist. Ducati couldn't escape the bad rules so they are leaving until they have something new.



Paolo can say he was following the rules all he wants. Ducati are gone, and anyone who looked closely could see that the 1198 lacked quite a bit of top end. The performance indexing rules are supposed to balance engine power, but they actually monitor the finishing positions of the bikes and they encourage sandbagging. Not Ducati's fault in the least. Nor is it their fault, imo, that the Flamminis put 1000cc twins in the danger zone by changing the rules in 2004.
 
My question would be can Ducati afford to stay out of WSBK for a long period? If not, why not come back with the v4, seems to be working for that other Italian manufacturer?
 
My question would be can Ducati afford to stay out of WSBK for a long period? If not, why not come back with the v4, seems to be working for that other Italian manufacturer?



Depends. If they aren't selling V-twins, do they need WSBK? Surely Yamaha must be asking themselves the same thing. If they clothed the R1 in M1-like fairings, and they upgraded the horsepower and electronics, they could probably charge 50% more and double their sales. If Ducat make a V4, why wouldn't they try to sell it with GP?



Only Yam and Ducati have this option, imo. Honda and Suzuki do not want to make V-engines for the production market. BMW, Aprilia, and Kawasaki don't run in GP.



The manufacturers engineer their MotoGP bikes into production machines (allegedly). Then they install hundreds of prototype parts on their production machines, and then they take them racing again.



Doesn't make a lot of sense, unless your WSBK product is significantly different from your GP product.
 
if Rodger Lee Hayden was beating the Ducati on a regular basis....then I would agree that Ducati can't race their current twin anymore.
 
He's hiding behind the performance indexing rules. They are poorly conceived rules that should have no reason to exist. Ducati couldn't escape the bad rules so they are leaving until they have something new.



Paolo can say he was following the rules all he wants. Ducati are gone, and anyone who looked closely could see that the 1198 lacked quite a bit of top end. The performance indexing rules are supposed to balance engine power, but they actually monitor the finishing positions of the bikes and they encourage sandbagging. Not Ducati's fault in the least. Nor is it their fault, imo, that the Flamminis put 1000cc twins in the danger zone by changing the rules in 2004.

Yet you saw them as the savior of AMA and trumpeted it from the mountain tops.



Ducati is the one who wanted the current rules. They said it was to expensive to build and maintain the 1000 cc with the exotic parts that were needed. They begged for the 1200cc engine and readily agreed to the the restrictor plates. Now that its not working out for them, they quit. Its not that complicated, its how Ducati operates and has operated for decades. The only difference is now, WSBK doesnt have to bend over every time Ducati threatens to pull out of the series if they dont get what they want.
 
Yet you saw them as the savior of AMA and trumpeted it from the mountain tops.



Ducati is the one who wanted the current rules. They said it was to expensive to build and maintain the 1000 cc with the exotic parts that were needed. They begged for the 1200cc engine and readily agreed to the the restrictor plates. Now that its not working out for them, they quit. Its not that complicated, its how Ducati operates and has operated for decades. The only difference is now, WSBK doesnt have to bend over every time Ducati threatens to pull out of the series if they dont get what they want.



Considering that the AMA rulebook has no performance indexing, I'm not sure how I could have supported such rules.



Ducati would not have needed an extra 200cc if the 2003 rulebook were still in play. Imo, Ducati were not behind the rules changes in 2004, specifically the elimination of the air restrictor. The performance indexing rules are the reason Ducati is gone, not b/c performance indexing is inherently bad, but b/c the WSBK rules were bad and they never should have needed to be written.
 
Considering that the AMA rulebook has no performance indexing, I'm not sure how I could have supported such rules.

Ducati would not have needed an extra 200cc if the 2003 rulebook were still in play. Imo, Ducati were not behind the rules changes in 2004, specifically the elimination of the air restrictor. The performance indexing rules are the reason Ducati is gone, not b/c performance indexing is inherently bad, but b/c the WSBK rules were bad and they never should have needed to be written.

Dont play dumb, you were all about the Buell and performance indexing in AMA. Now that Buell is gone, your going to pretend it never happened and you were its most ardent supporter. Besides, there is still Ducati and Buell in both ASB and DSB
 
Dont play dumb, you were all about the Buell and performance indexing in AMA. Now that Buell is gone, your going to pretend it never happened and you were its most ardent supporter. Besides, there is still Ducati and Buell in both ASB and DSB



I don't think you understand the concept of performance indexing.



Performance indexing is adjusting the performance of the bikes based upon finishing position. The index doesn't focus on horsepower which is part of the reason Ducati have left. It was painfully obvious that the air restrictor was choking their top end regardless of their finishing position.



AMA has never had a performance index. DMG homologated artificial rev limits and weight limits for bikes that were awkwardly out of place amongst the traditional AMA Supersport 600s. How does the 1125RR make 50 horsepower more than the 1125R? Both bikes have the same engine. DMG simply imposed an artificial rev limit and probably regulated compression so that the Buell made roughly the same power as a 600 in AMA Supersport trim. That's not a performance index. Roger Edmondson might have been applying a bit of competitive balance tactics, but I suspect that cost him his job (amongst other things).



No one supports performance indexing b/c everyone understands that the rider is a big part of the finishing position. Performance indexing is only necessary when the technical rules are inadequate. The Flamminis wrote the rulebook in 2004. Unless Ducati told Paolo to change the rulebook in 2004, Paolo can only blame himself.



I wonder about you, Povol, b/c you've never understood the AMA argument. You believe you are the keeper of the spirit of racing (I don't necessarily disagree) so when someone wants to change the sport you love, you conclude that they must be morally repugnant. If someone wants stock parts and production relevant mods for SBK, surely they are trying to make bad riders win. If someone wants more bikes at the front, surely they must think performance indexing is a good idea (nevermind that WSBK has many bikes at the front most of which are not performance indexed).



You're only undermining your own credibility by putting these thoughts in the public domain. Everything that happened in the AMA happened b/c of money. Money is an issue b/c the motorcycle market and AMA viewership have collapsed. All of the changes during 2008/2009 were an attempt to create competitive racing at a much lower price point. Some ideas were good, some ideas were not good, but there was no conspiracy to ruin racing, only differing opinions about reducing costs and encouraging competition. You never participated in that discussion b/c you were to busy determining the moral fortitude (or lack thereof) of the people involved in the discussion.



It is little wonder that you still don't understand how the AMA works or what rules DMG have chosen with input from the AMA board. As I've told you on numerous occasions they use Supersport rules in SBK and AMA SS rules in DSB. Where is the problem? You've got no beef with AMA SS. You don't lampoon WSS for being low tech crap. You're only pissed with the AMA b/c there is no money for high tech bikes. The manufacturers are the only place for you to direct your rage. They are broke. They managed the series when it fell apart. It was a miracle that Edmondson talked DMG into buying the AMA for $10M. You should build a statue of the man in your front yard.
<




Thankfully, I don't have to worship the man like you do b/c I really only cared about his ideas and not his benevolent overpayment for a handful of AMA series that were losing money. The only man who thought the AMA was worth $10m has been fired.
<
This would make a hell of a Greek tragedy.
 
I don't think you understand the concept of performance indexing.



Performance indexing is adjusting the performance of the bikes based upon finishing position. The index doesn't focus on horsepower which is part of the reason Ducati have left. It was painfully obvious that the air restrictor was choking their top end regardless of their finishing position.



AMA has never had a performance index. DMG homologated artificial rev limits and weight limits for bikes that were awkwardly out of place amongst the traditional AMA Supersport 600s. How does the 1125RR make 50 horsepower more than the 1125R? Both bikes have the same engine. DMG simply imposed an artificial rev limit and probably regulated compression so that the Buell made roughly the same power as a 600 in AMA Supersport trim. That's not a performance index. Roger Edmondson might have been applying a bit of competitive balance tactics, but I suspect that cost him his job (amongst other things).



No one supports performance indexing b/c everyone understands that the rider is a big part of the finishing position. Performance indexing is only necessary when the technical rules are inadequate. The Flamminis wrote the rulebook in 2004. Unless Ducati told Paolo to change the rulebook in 2004, Paolo can only blame himself.



I wonder about you, Povol, b/c you've never understood the AMA argument. You believe you are the keeper of the spirit of racing (I don't necessarily disagree) so when someone wants to change the sport you love, you conclude that they must be morally repugnant. If someone wants stock parts and production relevant mods for SBK, surely they are trying to make bad riders win. If someone wants more bikes at the front, surely they must think performance indexing is a good idea (nevermind that WSBK has many bikes at the front most of which are not performance indexed).



You're only undermining your own credibility by putting these thoughts in the public domain. Everything that happened in the AMA happened b/c of money. Money is an issue b/c the motorcycle market and AMA viewership have collapsed. All of the changes during 2008/2009 were an attempt to create competitive racing at a much lower price point. Some ideas were good, some ideas were not good, but there was no conspiracy to ruin racing, only differing opinions about reducing costs and encouraging competition. You never participated in that discussion b/c you were to busy determining the moral fortitude (or lack thereof) of the people involved in the discussion.



It is little wonder that you still don't understand how the AMA works or what rules DMG have chosen with input from the AMA board. As I've told you on numerous occasions they use Supersport rules in SBK and AMA SS rules in DSB. Where is the problem? You've got no beef with AMA SS. You don't lampoon WSS for being low tech crap. You're only pissed with the AMA b/c there is no money for high tech bikes. The manufacturers are the only place for you to direct your rage. They are broke. They managed the series when it fell apart. It was a miracle that Edmondson talked DMG into buying the AMA for $10M. You should build a statue of the man in your front yard.
<




Thankfully, I don't have to worship the man like you do b/c I really only cared about his ideas and not his benevolent overpayment for a handful of AMA series that were losing money. The only man who thought the AMA was worth $10m has been fired.
<
This would make a hell of a Greek tragedy.



Semantics



Totally wrong, the Buell in DSB was pushing HP in the FX category



Wrong some more,. Superbike is akin to the old Superstock and DSB is no where near the performance of the old SS and WSS is far from low tech.



And last but not least, you must be high, or suffer some sort of mental health issue. Me worship RE. I loath that pos, he is the last thing on this earth i would worship
 
Semantics



Totally wrong, the Buell in DSB was pushing HP in the FX category



Wrong some more,. Superbike is akin to the old Superstock and DSB is no where near the performance of the old SS and WSS is far from low tech.



And last but not least, you must be high, or suffer some sort of mental health issue. Me worship RE. I loath that pos, he is the last thing on this earth i would worship



If the performance controls do not monitor finishing position, it's not a performance index. It's not semantics.



I think you're right about the Buell though, I do remember Danny driving past people in a straight line. The bike probably had FX power.



AMA SBK is the WSS rulebook almost verbatim. You've not even looked at the rulebook so I find it difficult to believe you have any idea what's going on. It can't be Superstock if it's free compression. Do you even know what Superstock is?



DSB is AMA SS. John Ulrich said so himself, and since he runs a team, I think he's a pretty good measure of the rulebook. The words in the rulebook are the same as well.
 

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