Dovi to SRT for Remainder of 2021

Plenty of comment about Pedrosa's role in improving the KTM since his move there also.

Such a small guy trying to race a heavier and powerful beast such as a MotoGP bike would need to get the bike working reasonably well. He aint going to have the size and strength to make the bike do what it doesn't want to, to the degree others can.

A fair bit to do with the current tyres too, but the Honda has not made improvement by losing his input.
Some riders are very capable of providing direction to develop the bike, I agree.

To be fair to Dovi what he showed with those victories against MM was his racecraft, preserving his tires to the end of races, working through the field, and making decisive passes at a point where he could use what the Ducati had mostly giving MM no opportunity to come back at him.

I wouldn't acclaim MM's race craft, to me he mostly relies on his sheer pace including one lap pace which in his pomp (which imo may not be over/may return) seemed to involve him riding beyond what the limits of the bike would have been for most if not all other riders, including riding on worn tires, although I would guess he must be able to preserve tires as well. Stoner and Lorenzo were mostly more sheer pace guys imo as well. Rossi on the other hand nearly won an 8th/10th title at age 36 based more on racecraft than the sheer pace he had for much of his career.

I agree with Birdman's take on MM, as I do with most of his assessments in regard to bike racing, that MM's method has been to find the limits of the tire and ride at that limit, this being hard to do given the vagaries/variance of the current Michelin tires which is very likely not helping as others have said on this thread.

Gaz said:

Small gradual steps that had a sudden and marked improvement from between season end and season start. I would say that 1 win in 2016 to 6 wins in 2017 is not a gradual improvement but a sudden, sharp improvement which based on the 4 previous years is not and does not support gradual steps .......... nope, something serious and significant occurred with Ducati between season 2016 and 2017 which is when Gabbarini returned and Lorenzo arrived.



Conversely, if Dovi is so good then why did he only have 1 win in 4 years prior to Gabbarini's arrival at Ducati?

Lets be realistic, Dovi had 7 years on full factory supported rides leading up to 2017 and produced 2 wins (not counting the Scott Honda season to tech3 as full factory) and then went haywire with 10 wins across the next 2 seasons (2017 & 2018).

Likewise, capability to develop does not mean immediate improvements for yourself but in saying that, who was the better rider in late 2017?

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Yes - small gradual steps. The atom bomb wasn’t built in a day, but when the project reached completion, it turned to to be the pinnacle of destructive weapons. When it blew Hiroshima off the map, nobody remarked on it being a “sudden sharp improvement”.

To be sure, my post was not about Dovi being more accomplished than Lorenzo, only that he was there at Ducati through a lot of lean years during which a seemingly infinite number of small refinements were tried, all of which laid down the foundation upon which Gabbarini et al, were able to bring to a head. Whereas from some people’s perspective, Gabbarini and Lorenzo just dropped by casually and pulled a rabbit out of their hat, a whole new bike from scratch, which just isn’t realistic.

After all those seasons doing the donkey work for Ducati, who more than Dovi deserved to benefit from the cumulative development work topped off with Gabbarini’s changes?

I can’t help but admire his work ethic, as compared to say Rossi who deserted Honda, cried like a baby till he got Bridgestones mid-contract, and myriad other primadonnas that constantly bitched and moaned about their bikes not being perfect.

In summary: Dovi and Co. baked the cake.
Gabbarini and Lorenzo putting the cherry on top doesn’t buy them sole bragging rights for the success of the current bike. R&D progress is cumulative. It’s a team effort.

Keshav said:

In summary: Dovi and Co. baked the cake.
Gabbarini and Lorenzo putting the cherry on top doesn’t buy them sole bragging rights for the success of the current bike. R&D progress is cumulative. It’s a team effort.

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Absolutely it doesn't, but likewise 4 years of slow progress with 1 result followed by a remarkable improvement does not also mean that the 4 slow years reaped that result, contributed yes but did not reap.

You have your view, I have mine but and I do not see Dovi as person responsible for the 2017 Ducati ............. I do see Lorenzo and Gabbarini having a greater part to play, for alternate reasons

Gabbarini because he bought direction and structure that had worked during his years at HRC back to Ducati and is a damn good engineer/tech.

Lorenzo because he bought the mindset of a winner. He lit the fire under Dovi because Dovi felt snubbed by the signing, but Lorenzo also bought direction and the ego to demand/push for things (much like Rossi does). Let us also not forget that since Lorenzo left Yamaha and moved, the Ducati results improved, Yamaha became more inconsistent all of which illustrates to me the 'weirdness' of the HRC animal

Btw, nowhere do I not say team effort, afterall not all team mates are borne of equal ability, but I readily will say that some contributions are better than others

Gaz said:

Absolutely it doesn't, but likewise 4 years of slow progress with 1 result followed by a remarkable improvement does not also mean that the 4 slow years reaped that result, contributed yes but did not reap.

You have your view, I have mine but and I do not see Dovi as person responsible for the 2017 Ducati ............. I do see Lorenzo and Gabbarini having a greater part to play, for alternate reasons

Gabbarini because he bought direction and structure that had worked during his years at HRC back to Ducati and is a damn good engineer/tech.

Lorenzo because he bought the mindset of a winner. He lit the fire under Dovi because Dovi felt snubbed by the signing, but Lorenzo also bought direction and the ego to demand/push for things (much like Rossi does). Let us also not forget that since Lorenzo left Yamaha and moved, the Ducati results improved, Yamaha became more inconsistent all of which illustrates to me the 'weirdness' of the HRC animal

Btw, nowhere do I not say team effort, afterall not all team mates are borne of equal ability, but I readily will say that some contributions are better than others

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By continually referring to 2017 you are, if I may re-use my example, solely focused on the cherry and ignoring the big-... cake it was resting on.

The value of a winner mind-set is a pretty hard to quantify, especially in light of the fact that Dovi and Marquez both won 6 races in 2017, and Lorenzo - Zero.

As to the decline of Yamaha, most would agree, that was a result of Rossi's finger being so deep in the pie, what with all his efforts to get Yamaha to make a bike that would help him win despite his failing abilities. And at a certain point, it became pretty clear, that Yamaha in general, just pretty much lost their way, a problem that lasted a few years.

Keshav said:

By continually referring to 2017 you are, if I may re-use my example, solely focused on the cherry and ignoring the big-... cake it was resting on.

The value of a winner mind-set is a pretty hard to quantify, especially in light of the fact that Dovi and Marquez both won 6 races in 2017, and Lorenzo - Zero.

As to the decline of Yamaha, most would agree, that was a result of Rossi's finger being so deep in the pie, what with all his efforts to get Yamaha to make a bike that would help him win despite his failing abilities. And at a certain point, it became pretty clear, that Yamaha in general, just pretty much lost their way, a problem that lasted a few years.

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The whole thing is a contentious point, and was between Lorenzo and Dovi themselves who pretty much publicly brawled over the issue along the lines where yours and my (and I think Gaz's as well) opinions differ. As I have said Gigi the designer of the bike considered Lorenzo more important, and if the Lorenzo Yamaha worked for other riders then it worked for other riders.

The importance of what riders contribute in general is a separate question in regard to which I have less disagreement with you. I think though what it came down to was that Dovi wanted a title winner's salary when Gigi considered that it was his bike which was most important, and Dovi had indeed looked no better than he had always been in the years prior to 2017, with it being a toss up between keeping him or Iannone one year iirc. Ducati's attitude in general has ever been thus, which in the circumstances of last year (mainly MM's absence) may have cost them a title with Dovi on their bike. Obviously Ducati management thought they were paying Lorenzo too much to a greater extent, and he did nothing to convince them otherwise until the die was already cast.

Keshav said:

By continually referring to 2017 you are, if I may re-use my example, solely focused on the cherry and ignoring the big-... cake it was resting on.

The value of a winner mind-set is a pretty hard to quantify, especially in light of the fact that Dovi and Marquez both won 6 races in 2017, and Lorenzo - Zero.

As to the decline of Yamaha, most would agree, that was a result of Rossi's finger being so deep in the pie, what with all his efforts to get Yamaha to make a bike that would help him win despite his failing abilities. And at a certain point, it became pretty clear, that Yamaha in general, just pretty much lost their way, a problem that lasted a few years.

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Nope, it is interpretation.

I acknowledge the work done prior to 2017, but I also fully recognise the sudden change that occurred on the arrival of 2 other factors.

Winners mindset is everything for success but where was Dovi's prior to 2017 where after a number of years on factory machinery he had 2 wins?

Nope, the arrival of Lorenzo started a fire (said it at the time) and the arrival of Gabbarini facilitated the fire by providing greater prowess in the back office. Yes, the work prior helped but in many sports such a sudden improvement would raise eyebrows.

With Yamaha, interesting how we now blame Rossi and I for one accept that he played a significant part in the direction that the factory headed on his return in 2017, but likewise Lorenzo (and a tech or two) left, none of which should be under-estimated as for the 2 years Rossi was gone, you can bet your house everything went Lorenzo's way

We wont agree as I readily admit to not now or ever really seeing Dovi as anywhere near the level of the top guys (and personally, I suspect a lot is attitude). To me, Dovi's best year, the year that really sticks in my mind where I thought this guy could ride was his tech3 year, otherwise to me he has been on the periphery of my radar (that is within context of MotoGp riders of course)

I don't know if this needs saying, but sometimes text typed up on the internet doesn't always convey emotions all that well, so to be clear to Gaz, I enjoy dialoging with you and always appreciate alternate points of view. I've said it before, I have no problem being swayed to a better understanding of this sport.

michaelm said:

The importance of what riders contribute in general is a separate question on which I have less disagreement with you.

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My take here and where I agree but disagree is in the rider input to development.

Have always said that no rider today will tell the engineers how to fix an issue or how to improve performance, and likewise no rider will deliberately lead development of a bike to make it more ridable to his/her competitors (test riders are the exception)

Nope, to me development of a bike is rider based in terms of results and that rider's position within the heirachy.

You can bet that HRC use Marc's data to determine direction then they would Pol, likewise it was Dovi over Ianonne, Lorenzo over Spies and so forth which means that they lead the development. It is also why I wondre now for Ducati and Suzuki as examples where we have no clear ride leader. Where will they go in the next year or so?

What then happens is that once that lead rider leaves, the development focus has to change and that takes time as the development route is then based on another's data and so forth. Neverending cycle.

Keshav said:

I don't know if this needs saying, but sometimes text typed up on the internet doesn't always convey emotions all that well, so to be clear to Gaz, I enjoy dialoging with you and always appreciate alternate points of view. I've said it before, I have no problem being swayed to a better understanding of this sport.

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All good man, I have no issue debating but will pull the pin at some time else we end up like the years past where Talpa, Jumkie, You, me and a myriad of others wrote volume after volume which bored the .... out of a lot of people who come here for the bants

No worries guys... good debate.

Gaz said:

My take here and where I agree but disagree is in the rider input to development.

Have always said that no rider today will tell the engineers how to fix an issue or how to improve performance, and likewise no rider will deliberately lead development of a bike to make it more ridable to his/her competitors (test riders are the exception)

Nope, to me development of a bike is rider based in terms of results and that rider's position within the heirachy.

You can bet that HRC use Marc's data to determine direction then they would Pol, likewise it was Dovi over Ianonne, Lorenzo over Spies and so forth which means that they lead the development. It is also why I wondre now for Ducati and Suzuki as examples where we have no clear ride leader. Where will they go in the next year or so?

What then happens is that once that lead rider leaves, the development focus has to change and that takes time as the development route is then based on another's data and so forth. Neverending cycle.

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The other thing was that Gigi probably made up his mind about Dovi prior to 2017, they seemed a tad wistful when Stoner was testing for them that he would in no way consider unretiring. I have to say along with Gigi I didn’t foresee his subsequent results. Perhaps Gigi and Ducati saw him as failing to win the titles those years rather than finishing second.

I agree about Dovi not being a mid packer, but like you I don't think he has quite the final edge that the multiple title winners have, on bad weekends you have to do better than only having the pace to finish 8th or thereabouts which no longer seems to be a problem for FQ, who gives every appearance of being a top echelon rider himself, this year.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/986143/1/yamaha-wants-dovizioso-petronas-morbidelli-monster

Yamaha Racing managing director Lin Jarvis has confirmed plans forAndrea Doviziosoto return to the MotoGP grid with Petronas SRT at Misano, ahead of a full campaign for the reborn satellite Yamaha outfit in 2022.

"The plan is to have Morbidelli with the factory team and Dovizioso with the satellite teamfrom Misano and then also in 2022," Jarvis told the official MotoGP website.

warthog1 said:

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/986143/1/yamaha-wants-dovizioso-petronas-morbidelli-monster

Yamaha Racing managing director Lin Jarvis has confirmed plans forAndrea Doviziosoto return to the MotoGP grid with Petronas SRT at Misano, ahead of a full campaign for the reborn satellite Yamaha outfit in 2022.

"The plan is to have Morbidelli with the factory team and Dovizioso with the satellite teamfrom Misano and then also in 2022," Jarvis told the official MotoGP website.

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This news I am happy about.

Has the makings of a good team with Morbidelli and Quartararo

Gaz said:

This news I am happy about.

Has the makings of a good team with Morbidelli and Quartararo

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Agreed. And Dovi running duties in a satellite team, can foresee another golden era for Yamaha.

Yep. Good move, looks like a very strong team for next year. Dovi might get to stick it to Ducati.

Is that likely to happen because SRT have renegotiated the contract, so that next year they get 2 B spec bikes.
Be nice to see though…

I really dont care for Dovi. I know I've had that argument with some on here before but it pains me that he's coming back when a talent could have taken the bike to learn on.

I know some Moto2 riders have turned it down, bt what is Dovi going to do? Ride around on a B spec bike for a year then retire. Seems like a total waste to me.

How many riders who debuted in 2008 are still riding? Lorenzo won 3 titles and is long gone. Sure he was runner up for 2 years, but that was after 10 seasons in the sport.

Curious... which riders turned it down?

Dovi - who knows? May surprise people. He's 35 and Rossi actually had some good rides at that age. Sure it'll be last year's model, but the M1 is bound to handle better than the Ducati, on which he turned out some spectacular rides, despite that fact the ....... thing still doesn't turn. Dovi's in good shape and still without any serious injuries. He has serious race craft, rarely if ever crashes, and like Crafar likes to say (every 5 minutes) "He's a demon on the brakes".

#22 said:

I really dont care for Dovi. I know I've had that argument with some on here before but it pains me that he's coming back when a talent could have taken the bike to learn on.

I know some Moto2 riders have turned it down, bt what is Dovi going to do? Ride around on a B spec bike for a year then retire. Seems like a total waste to me.

How many riders who debuted in 2008 are still riding? Lorenzo won 3 titles and is long gone. Sure he was runner up for 2 years, but that was after 10 seasons in the sport.

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I hadn't particularly rated him either.
Those last lap dices he had with Marquez and came out on top, changed my opinion.
Marquez is the best I have seen in ~ 40 years of watching the sport.
To beat him like that, multiple times, is pretty impressive.