COTA 2014

Re vouching, and why getting an ID may be more difficult than those comfortably in the middle class may believe.


A report by Elections Canada, proves vouching is actually not the problem. It is a scapegoat to justify a flawed piece of legislation. The conclusion by experts is that no evidence of fraud exists. Any irregularities from the last Canadian federal election were administrative; not attempts by individuals to lie about their identity.


Representing the voices of some of the most impoverished areas of Canada, including Vancouver's Downtown Eastside, the testimony of grassroots organizations clearly shows that most of the 39 forms of ID listed by government simply are not accessible, nor will they solve the problem of providing a current address.


To get an ID you need an ID -- a challenge for most homeless people who do not have their birth certificate or driver's license. Meanwhile a majority of the other 37 pieces of ID that could be used do not show an address...


Considering that estimates of the visibly homeless population range from 150,000 - 300,000, with another 450,000 - 900,000 invisible homeless (couch surfing, living in overcrowded spaces, staying with friends), eliminating vouching could restrict access to voting for almost one million (in Canada we only have 37 million total) people who do not have a steady address. And this is just the homeless population -- add in students, seniors and Aboriginal people on reserve and the numbers could swell. People who are in dire circumstances or rural areas do not always have official documents to prove where they live. They can, however, bring a friend from the same polling station to vouch for their address, which is how vouching currently works.

Personally I have a much greater level of trust for my neighbours than I do for gobernment rules, regs, and IDs...

I can't really speak to political and/or voting situations in Canada. If vouching works, so be it.


 


@Jumkie: that "smart gun" idea sounds pretty cool, and very necessary given there seems to be a school shooting every other week these days. As for anyone who opposes such measures, I invite you to take a tour of Leesville, Louisiana (my current home) and see just why you may not want to have every Tom, ...., and Harry have access to a firearm.

rezonator636

3720691398796156

I can't really speak to political and/or voting situations in Canada. If vouching works, so be it

Click to expand...

WTF? The 'situation' is identical to the one being discussed. But in your opinion IDs are critical to being an eligible voter in the US, but vouching is fine in Canada... weird!

Mick D

3720721398797152

WTF? The 'situation' is identical to the one being discussed. But in your opinion IDs are critical to being an eligible voter in the US, but vouching is fine in Canada... weird!

Click to expand...

 


Just pointing out that, having never set foot in your country, I refuse to make judgements about it one way or the other. And I pointed out earlier that IDs wouldn't be necessary if there was fingerprinting and/or retinal scanning done at the polls. Yes, I believe identification of some sort should be required in order to vote in the US. If vouching works in Canada, fine, but I don't believe it's appropriate for voting in this country.

You gotta explain that ...., man. What could possibly make vouching OK in Canada but out-of-the-question for the USA? AND how the .... are you gonna finger-print and/or retina scan a quater billion people? AND why the .... would any citizen agree to being finger-printed or scanned just to be on a voting register? Orwellian to say the least. Freaking scarry stupid for a citizen to be suggesting the ....... on the hill have this power/right to imprint an entire nation to stop something THAT ISN'T HAPPENING! Truly trippy dude.

Jumkie

3720411398706887

Prof Pov. the fraud you speak of is not happening as you imagine, its insignificant.  You are attempting to solve a problem that only exist in scale of the hypothetical---worse (and not surprisingly), mainly because a think tank came up with the idea and sold you on it.  Perhaps they should have Southerners pass a basic logic test.  One that surely you and your ilk would fail spectacularly.

Click to expand...

 


 
JohnnyKnockdown

3720641398789332

Im curious, Dr Professor Kropovol, why you decided to become a climate change scientist. Was your first choice of major, southern change and then you found out there's no such thing as southern change?

Maybe you are too busy memorizing your Bible otherwise known as Hondas rule book and your not aware of this, but the United States also has a rulebook called the Constitution. In that rulebook it states that any person born on US soil is automatically a citizen. So to be a 2nd and 3rd generation illegal is impossible.

I know you're having trouble digesting this and i think i know why. When you went to kindergarten in the south the crayons you were given had names on them, The brown crayon color was called illegal.

The black crayons had a different name too.

So mistakenly you Southerners just refer to everything brown as illegal.

Click to expand...

Maybe the frequency of vitriolic posts like these are part of the reason that this place has become a bit of a wasteland.  There have been some interesting and thought provoking posts on this thread by exactly the same posters I quote above, so why is this kind of thing necessary?  I winced when I read these comments, and wondered whether to raise this point or just to wander back from whence I came. 


 


But at the end of the day this was one of the first forums I joined (in 2006 I think) and I've had many an interesting convo on here with many people over the last 8 years.  It seems a shame to let this place descend to the point that the oldtimers (in posting history if not actual age!) snipe at each other, let alone anyone new with the temerity to join and post an opinion.  If this continues this place will become an echo chamber for the few who agree with each other and do not post differing ideas.


 


No bitchyness intended towards the 2 posters I singled out - they were just both posts I read today and winced at.  Just a thought. 

Mick D

3720771398800668

You gotta explain that ...., man. What could possibly make vouching OK in Canada but out-of-the-question for the USA? AND how the .... are you gonna finger-print and/or retina scan a quater billion people? AND why the .... would any citizen agree to being finger-printed or scanned just to be on a voting register? Orwellian to say the least. Freaking scarry stupid for a citizen to be suggesting the ....... on the hill have this power/right to imprint an entire nation to stop something THAT ISN'T HAPPENING! Truly trippy dude.

Click to expand...

 


First, I've had both my fingerprints and retina scanned as part of my immigration inprocessing. I've also had my thumbprint scanned every time I've renewed my military ID. It's not nearly as Orwellian as it sounds. I have yet to wake up and do stretching exercises while Big Brother watches.


 


Second, you finger-print and/or retina scan a quarter of a billion people the same way you issue them Social Security cards. They go to the office, sit there until a bored clerk calls their number, then put their thumb on a scanner (or look into a scanner) and voila. If that sounds horrifying, like the government shouldn't be able to track you that way, well guess what: the government already tracks you using your SSN. This isn't any different. Plus, binding your SSN to your fingerprint or retinal scan may improve the security of the number, which is important given the problem of identity theft. I wouldn't be surprised if retinal scans become mandatory with the issuance of SSNs in the next ten years.


 


Third, you're giving the government far too much credit as an evil entity. As a US government employee, I can tell you firsthand that the gov't is a lumbering, confused, beurocratic behemoth that can't get out of its own way. There are forces of evil at work in the gov't sure, as well as forces for good, as there are in any gigantic organization. But both forces are far outnumbered by the forces of the stupid. The only place where you have a true Orwellian government is in North Korea, and that's only because the country is so small and insignificant that no other nation has felt it necessary to go over there and kick Kim Jong's ass.


 


And finally, vouching can be okay in Canada and not the US because our borders are different. You share a border with the US; we share one with Mexico, and have a real issue with undocumented labor in this country. I don't know the statistics, but I'd be willing to bet that there are far more undocumented residents per capita in the US than there are in Canada. That's why the voter registration laws should be different.

To late yamaka. The damage has been done. Time for requium rather than review. If she's not already singing I can definitely hear the fat lady warming up! The issue is/was not member sniping or vitriol, which, let's face it, has been here since day one, it was the change in ownership which turned out to be the death call. Cheers Ben.

Mick D

3720841398802640

To late yamaka. The damage has been done. Time for requium rather than review. If she's not already singing I can definitely hear the fat lady warming up! The issue is/was not member sniping or vitriol, which, let's face it, has been here since day one, it was the change in ownership which turned out to be the death call. Cheers Ben.

Click to expand...

I agree about the change of ownership and the censorship that ensued, hence the reason I'm also at SS, but the vitriol does seem to have reached new levels despite (or perhaps part of the reason for) the posting pool becoming ever shallower.   Sad really, and it's probably true regarding that fat lady.  Catch you on the flip side

Rez, I'll try to continue our debate later (might be a day or two) as I am away from land and reasonable internet at the moment and long posts are difficult while at sea and on this particular device!

yamaka46

3720851398803182

I agree about the change of ownership and the censorship that ensued, hence the reason I'm also at SS, but the vitriol does seem to have reached new levels despite (or perhaps part of the reason for) the posting pool becoming ever shallower.   Sad really, and it's probably true regarding that fat lady.  Catch you on the flip side

Click to expand...

 


Can we all just migrate to SS and be done with it? It's weird debating the same people about the same things on two different forums.


 


@Mick: Sounds good and have a safe trip.

yamaka46

3720811398801977

Maybe the frequency of vitriolic posts like these are part of the reason that this place has become a bit of a wasteland.  There have been some interesting and thought provoking posts on this thread by exactly the same posters I quote above, so why is this kind of thing necessary?  I winced when I read these comments, and wondered whether to raise this point or just to wander back from whence I came. 

Click to expand...

 

Mutual virtual combat. Albeit, lopsided wits, given the response quips have become reorganized recycled retorts after which Pov and theDeal pat themselves on the back thinking they are somehow clever.  Have you ever heard the saying, 'don't start nothin there won't be nothin'?  Well, scroll a bit back to see how these things start.  I have in my sig below: "if you live in a glass house don't throw rocks", its a bit of a reminder, that if one want to tangle words (and thats what they are, words on a virtual screen), I'm game.  Its harmless, and easily can be avoided by several methods, as has been mentioned over a thousand times and over the years on this forum.  Friend, I see where you are coming from, but this is not Powersaints.com, only Popes who preside over child rape can become saints.  

 yamaka46

3720811398801977

But at the end of the day this was one of the first forums I joined (in 2006 I think) and I've had many an interesting convo on here with many people over the last 8 years.  It seems a shame to let this place descend to the point that the oldtimers (in posting history if not actual age!) snipe at each other, let alone anyone new with the temerity to join and post an opinion.  If this continues this place will become an echo chamber for the few who agree with each other and do not post differing ideas.

Click to expand...

 

I have history on this forum too, and like you I have affections for the space.  Here is the thing, people feel quite passionate about their opinions (me included obviously) and like on the race track, people will bump and rub, and sometimes torpedo.  There is a long list of people who have come on here, expressed their opinions, huffed and puffed when they were challenged, responded with vitriol them scampered away crying foul (some have returned time and time again, while others have not).  Yet quite often they themselves engaged in the same "vitriolic" manner.  Oh I've lost count how many said this place was harsh, while I could easily quote them writing .....  Nobody tops Krops on this one, who came on here and when challenged dished out ...., while calling foul on his site if he spewed the very words he posted here.  And I can think of many others: NannyK and all his aliases, BJC, Zoots, la pirata, etc. (I know they were probably all the same dude).  Its a pattern that has played out countless times, and usually begun by somebody disagreeing with their racing opinions, then escalating, then spewing, then crying foul.

 yamaka46

3720811398801977

No bitchyness intended towards the 2 posters I singled out - they were just both posts I read today and winced at.  Just a thought. 

Click to expand...

 

Mutual virtual combat.  My approach is to stay out of other peoples fights, while happily engaging in those that come to me.  Again, keep in mind we are talking typed words on a screen, not actual physical fighting as in the actual world where we ALL follow a different paradigm of behavior.  

The conclusion by experts is that no evidence of fraud exists.


I have trouble reading anything after this statement as for it is 100% complete .........  unless it includes the fact that they are burying their heads in the sand. Fraud is everywhere and to believe it doesn't exist in politics (at every level) is absurd. 

steeeeeve

3720921398812845

The conclusion by experts is that no evidence of fraud exists.

I have trouble reading anything after this statement as for it is 100% complete .........  unless it includes the fact that they are burying their heads in the sand. Fraud is everywhere and to believe it doesn't exist in politics (at every level) is absurd. 

Click to expand...

The point is the type of fraud my friend. Impersonation, that is, the voter fraud an ID would supposedly resolve is statistically nonexistent. There is a reason for that btw, as its not like some Joe off the street can vote, as im sure u are aware of the process when presenting yourself at a polling station. When some states have proposed ID requirements, the opposition have asked advocates to produce evidence, there have been some states that haven't been able to produce one solitary case. Thats FACT! So the argument has been made hypothetically. Go ahead, produce some evidence yourself buddy. Again, we are talking impersonation fraud, not say for example voter registration fraud or disenfranchised ballots that actual officials discarded in Florida 2000 (I'll assume you accept that was fraudulent too). We are talking about the point of voting where an ID would be required to be presented to gain access to the ballot booth. Im assuming you're online right now. Your evidence is just a few clicks away then. Help the proponents of voter ID laws to produce evidence of a rampant problem.

Notice how these admission regarding voter IDs mention buffering fraudulent voter. (Oh wait, they dont mention that at all but rather its effect as a political elections ploy!)


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XreSZvgdZwA&feature=youtu.be

Oops and how about this guy? Did I say this out loud?



http://youtu.be/87NN5sdqNt8

"Im assuming you're online right now. Your evidence is just a few clicks away then."


You do it. I get bored surfing the internet for that crap. Besides we all just surf until we find what we want to hear then say "ah ha!"


I mostly base my opinions on what makes sense to me.  


If there is a real problem with legal voters not having access to identification then perhaps there could be a task force created to get these folks a leg up. 


My original argument was enabling people to go through this one life we have not being able to pursue many of life's joys requiring an ID seems cruel to me.  You're not helping the you're hurting them.  But i could be wrong. 


My not very passionate on the voting thing. I'm a Libertarian and my vote has never really counted for much.

Fair enuf bro. Ron Paul and Ralph Nader are my guys. And recently like what Liz Warren is saying.

jeez a quick look back in and tumbleweeds are blowing through here! where have all the fun loving debaters gone?