Congratulations, Binder!

Arrabbiata1 · Sep 27, 2016

povol said:
In bike racing , the years between 15-20 is when a rider usually shows the progression that determines if he is special or not. Most if not all of the greats dont get stuck in lower classes for 4-5 years, they come in, ride at the front and move on.

Ha! tell that to Angel Nieto!!!

That Aussie guy, what was his name? Stoner or something – y’know, the one that spent four years in the lower classes having contested National Championships beforehand and didn’t graduate until the premier class until 21...Underwhelming.

povol said:
I have reservations about Rins as well as he has shown that he is more of a points racer.

That'll be precisely how Nicky secured a Premier Class World Championship then.

povol · Sep 27, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
Ha! tell that to Angel Nieto!!!

That Aussie guy, what was his name? Stoner or something – y’know, the one that spent four years in the lower classes having contested National Championships beforehand and didn’t graduate until the premier class until 21...Underwhelming.

That'll be precisely how Nicky secured a Premier Class World Championship then.

Casey spent 4 years total in the lower classes, not 5 years in the lowest class. Nieto stayed on mini bikes by choice

povol · Sep 27, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
Ha! tell that to Angel Nieto!!!

That Aussie guy, what was his name? Stoner or something – y’know, the one that spent four years in the lower classes having contested National Championships beforehand and didn’t graduate until the premier class until 21...Underwhelming.

That'll be precisely how Nicky secured a Premier Class World Championship then.

As much as i love Nicky, i have never considered him special in GP, which is the conversation

Arrabbiata1 · Sep 28, 2016

povol said:
Casey spent 4 years total in the lower classes, not 5 years in the lowest class. Nieto stayed on mini bikes by choice

I'm quite aware of how long Casey spent in 125 and 250. However, you didn't say that did you? - you originally said this...

povol said:
Most if not all of the greats dont get stuck in lower classes for 4-5 years, they come in, ride at the front and move on.

Added to the fact that Casey was 21 when he moved up. Your point about Binder?

Similarly, I am more than aware of Nieto's decision to remain in the lower classes by choice. I wonder what the Povol verdict would have been after four - five years though?

Quite frankly Pov, your talent scouting formula is a pile of cack and you're making it up as you go along.

Richy56 · Sep 28, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
I'm quite aware of how long Casey spent in 125 and 250. However, you didn't say that did you? - you originally said this...

Added to the fact that Casey was 21 when he moved up. Your point about Binder?

Similarly, I am more than aware of Nieto's decision to remain in the lower classes by choice. I wonder what the Povol verdict would have been after four - five years though?

Quite frankly Pov, your talent scouting formula is a pile of cack and you're making it up as you go along.

Yeah I wish more lads these days would stay in lower classes to try and win it multiple times, become a specialist. Rather than just trying to get an average seat in MotoGP.

Fair play to zarco for waiting another year and trying to defend his crown.

Some of the best riders started old too, bit before my time but wasn't Dothan a late starter? Bayliss was also as was shakey Byrne (maybe not a considered a great but pretty special on uk tracks on a superbike)

AJV80 · Sep 28, 2016

Richy56 said:
Yeah I wish more lads these days would stay in lower classes to try and win it multiple times, become a specialist. Rather than just trying to get an average seat in MotoGP.

I think Jack Millers jump from Moto3 to GP hasn't really worked in his favour. He may have won a race but it was a wet race with a huge attrition rate nevethless he rode well, I don't see him repeating those type of performance with the VDS team in dry conditions. I think he would have been much better off doing 1 or 2 seasons in Moto2. he is only young, I don't know what the big rush was for to get into MotoGP.

Gaz · Sep 28, 2016

povol said:
Casey spent 4 years total in the lower classes, not 5 years in the lowest class. Nieto stayed on mini bikes by choice

You could also add Max Biaggi - 4 x 250cc titles from 7 attempts as an example of staying in the lower classes first as well as Jorge Martinez and Carlo Ubbiali as people who chose not to 'graduate' and yet had very successful careers (just throwing some more onto the fire for you Arrib)

It may just be me but I do miss the tiddler classes of years back as whilst we can say that Moto3/Moto2 are the current, the past classes provided some sensational racing and brilliant riders.

Gaz · Sep 28, 2016

AJV80 said:
I think Jack Millers jump from Moto3 to GP hasn't really worked in his favour. He may have won a race but it was a wet race with a huge attrition rate nevethless he rode well, I don't see him repeating those type of performance with the VDS team in dry conditions. I think he would have been much better off doing 1 or 2 seasons in Moto2. he is only young, I don't know what the big rush was for to get into MotoGP.

Thing is, to many people Moto2 is somewhat of a wasteland so why spend time in the wasteland when your aim is higher?

IMO only but I believe that the move was correct because Honda trusted and invested a 3 year contract so they, by that 3 year contract indicate that they do not expect a great ROI for a few years (next year being the critical year).

Personally I subscribe to the theory that says if you want to play wit the big boys, the sooner you get there the more chance to play you get and thus the more chance you get to become one of the big boys.

AJV80 · Sep 28, 2016

Gaz said:
Thing is, to many people Moto2 is somewhat of a wasteland so why spend time in the wasteland when your aim is higher?

IMO only but I believe that the move was correct because Honda trusted and invested a 3 year contract so they, by that 3 year contract indicate that they do not expect a great ROI for a few years (next year being the critical year).

Personally I subscribe to the theory that says if you want to play wit the big boys, the sooner you get there the more chance to play you get and thus the more chance you get to become one of the big boys.

I had the same opinion as you initially and saw what had happened to Ant West in the Moto2's and agree it can be a bit like purgatory where if a rider doesn't get picked up can become stale and just hang around.

I could see Honda saw something in Miller or they wouldn't have believed in him so much to give him a deal. His future in the series depends on next season like you say, I think it is going to be really tough for him to impress based on his team and his consistency record with spills and injuries, next season is going to be a tall order for him. Even if he completes all races and has a top ten season result, where will he go besides KTM? I don't know who's contracts are even up by next year.

Hindsight is a beautiful thing, but would he have been better off getting noticed in the 2's and making his debut on a factory backed bike like Vinales did, seemed to work well for him who is also a talented young rider.

Dr No · Sep 28, 2016

Gaz said:
You could also add Max Biaggi - 4 x 250cc titles from 7 attempts as an example of staying in the lower classes first as well as Jorge Martinez and Carlo Ubbiali as people who chose not to 'graduate' and yet had very successful careers (just throwing some more onto the fire for you Arrib)

It may just be me but I do miss the tiddler classes of years back as whilst we can say that Moto3/Moto2 are the current, the past classes provided some sensational racing and brilliant riders.

Not to mention that Max started racing at 18.

Edit to add: Nobby Ueda!

Iamapony · Sep 29, 2016

AJV80 said:
I think Jack Millers jump from Moto3 to GP hasn't really worked in his favour........ I think he would have been much better off doing 1 or 2 seasons in Moto2. he is only young, I don't know what the big rush was for to get into MotoGP.

Gaz said:
Thing is, to many people Moto2 is somewhat of a wasteland so why spend time in the wasteland when your aim is higher?
.......
Personally I subscribe to the theory that says if you want to play wit the big boys, the sooner you get there the more chance to play you get and thus the more chance you get to become one of the big boys.

Honda experiment by pushing jack too fast, but they held Marquez back another year, even though he was the fastest thing in Moto2.

Which strategy has worked better? Jack is getting hurt and is wasting a potentially good career trying to race a very fast bike before he learned how to ride any fast bike. Meanwhile, Marc could beat all sorts of records in the next decade.

Iamapony · Sep 29, 2016

Oh, and congratulations to the Binder. In bitchy land, I will only go second with announcements from now. JLo won a ship with a bunch of seconds. So it can't be all bad. ;-) I think he will do well on bigger bikes.

AJV80 · Sep 29, 2016

Iamapony said:
Honda experiment by pushing jack too fast, but they held Marquez back another year, even though he was the fastest thing in Moto2.

Which strategy has worked better? Jack is getting hurt and is wasting a potentially good career trying to race a very fast bike before he learned how to ride any fast bike. Meanwhile, Marc could beat all sorts of records in the next decade.

To be fair I think Marc is a much more naturally talented rider/racer to Miller. I also think that they have the intermediate Moto2 class for a reason.

yamfan · Sep 29, 2016

AJV80 said:
To be fair I think Marc is a much more naturally talented rider/racer to Miller. I also think that they have the intermediate Moto2 class for a reason.

Agreed, Marquez is more naturally talented but until we see Jack on the same spec bike we'll not find out how much the lad can actually do.
On the subject of Binder, did anyone notice Bastiannini's teammate, Digiannantonio pushing Brad out on the rumblestrips on multiple occasions? It put me in mind of the time all the Italian riders ganged up to try and stop the other non Italian guy (sorry I can't remember his name atm, Talmasci or Luthi maybe?) from taking a leisurely ride to clinching the 125cc title. Also, how did Capirossi get away with his dive bomb move to take his title, now he's a highly respected safety officer!!!
Don't trust the Italians to play fair when the title is at stake...LOL

p4p1 · Sep 29, 2016

yamfan said:
Agreed, Marquez is more naturally talented but until we see Jack on the same spec bike we'll not find out how much the lad can actually do.
On the subject of Binder, did anyone notice Bastiannini's teammate, Digiannantonio pushing Brad out on the rumblestrips on multiple occasions? It put me in mind of the time all the Italian riders ganged up to try and stop the other non Italian guy (sorry I can't remember his name atm, Talmasci or Luthi maybe?) from taking a leisurely ride to clinching the 125cc title. Also, how did Capirossi get away with his dive bomb move to take his title, now he's a highly respected safety officer!!!
Don't trust the Italians to play fair when the title is at stake...LOL

I can't believe that Capirossi was allowed to win that title after that. Surely RD should've stripped him of points.

p4p1 · Sep 29, 2016

Jack Miller has had a bad season it's got nothing to do with skipping moto2, he's already spent a year in GP outriding a former world champ on the same equipment. If it was his first season maybe you could argue it's because he skipped moto2 but it isn't.

AJV80 · Sep 29, 2016

yamfan said:
Agreed, Marquez is more naturally talented but until we see Jack on the same spec bike we'll not find out how much the lad can actually do.

Is it the bike thats biggest difference with MM and JM or is it more the team and what they can get out of the bike for MM also combined with MM just being faster than him? I don't really know.

yamfan · Sep 29, 2016

AJV80 said:
Is it the bike thats biggest difference with MM and JM or is it more the team and what they can get out of the bike for MM also combined with MM just being faster than him? I don't really know.

I don't know exactly either buddy, but they say the wet can be a great leveller. Admittedly this season is doubly confusing due to the Michelin tyres and their sometimes inconsistencies.
At the end of the race though Jack and Marc were close, Marc held back due to the title race which denied us a look at how a head to head battle might pan out. I suspect Marquez would have won if he pushed though...

AJV80 · Sep 29, 2016

yamfan said:
I don't know exactly either buddy, but they say the wet can be a great leveller. Admittedly this season is doubly confusing due to the Michelin tyres and their sometimes inconsistencies.
At the end of the race though Jack and Marc were close, Marc held back due to the title race which denied us a look at how a head to head battle might pan out. I suspect Marquez would have won if he pushed though...

I feel the bikes are a lot closer this year but the electronics and tyres are part blame for that too. I think the same, if MM pushed I think it would have been a good battle.

yamfan · Sep 29, 2016

AJV80 said:
I feel the bikes are a lot closer this year but the electronics and tyres are part blame for that too. I think the same, if MM pushed I think it would have been a good battle.

....... is a great lad and eminently likeable, I really hope he does come good. It's going to have to be soon though as there's quite a crop of talented younger riders just dying for a chance at the big time. The teams recognise this and lately seem more inclined to take a punt on them to see if they're the real deal. Maybe Marquez and Maverick's performance have brought this even more to the forefront when they're choosing their riders each year or so.

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