Canadian pension fund takes stake in MotoGP group Dorna

BarryMachine · Oct 26, 2012

Why are you all complaining!!??

I have been predicting whats coming for years:

Electric is the next power source ...... pensioners ......

Thats whats coming!!

Mick D · Oct 26, 2012

Now Barry - that was funny!!

Andy Roo · Oct 26, 2012

Kropotkin said:
This, by the way, is why WSBK was brought under Dorna's umbrella. It had nothing to do with a power struggle, it was merely consolidating assets to make them more attractive to potential buyers.

Or eliminating the competition to ensure they don't take market share while you're not looking or in an antitrust suit for example.

Your explanation is a bit hazy. Do you want an essay on the relative fortunes of microsoft, apple and nokia. I think you are on of the most valuable members of this forum in relation to your insights but I have to call ........ on that one.

Your entire worth is dependant on what your opposition is doing. Might even be Nash's law.

Motogp was Nokia waiting for apples Iphone. In this scenario Nokia purchased Apple.

Motogp is now available as a "Nphone" app.

mylexicon said:
Edit: Nevermind

Even Lex was going to call it for being ........ (respectfully Krop) but decided to watch modern family instead.

Kropotkin said:
You're right. It's all a big conspiracy, to create WWSBKE, built around the superstar Valentino Rossi. From 2015, the two series will be consolidated, and a new rule will be brought in saying Rossi must win at last 11 races a season. Every rider whose last name does not rhyme with 'ossi' will have 10kg extra to lug around. All riders born in Tavullia will be allowed an extra 200cc engine capacity. Yellow will become the official color of the WWSBKE.

The conspiracy as such ( and I hate conspiracy theories) is more like KERS than the engine itself Just a tiny push when needed. You barely notice it, but the beating of a butterfly's wings can be felt for a long way.

Butterfly effect being initially penned by a guy named "Lorenz". He took the "o" from his name and then launched a butterfly in the 2010 season to help his second cousin once removed Jorge. Nobody saw the connection but I bring it to you now. Illuminating stuff...

Mick D · Oct 27, 2012

God Andy, I love opiates too!!!

Kropotkin · Oct 27, 2012

Andy Roo said:
Or eliminating the competition to ensure they don't take market share while you're not looking or in an antitrust suit for example.

Your explanation is a bit hazy. Do you want an essay on the relative fortunes of microsoft, apple and nokia. I think you are on of the most valuable members of this forum in relation to your insights but I have to call ........ on that one.

There is more than one way of eliminating competition. Taking them over and sequestering their profits is another way, very common among software companies. In fact most of Microsoft's growth has been achieved this way.

And another one to fan the conspiracies. My sources tell me (this one's just for you Jum) that Carmelo isn't calling the shots any more. It's one of the Bridgepoint dudes....

Andy Roo · Oct 27, 2012

Krop, one model is consolidation of assets, the other is removing the competition and thereby turning it into an asset. It prevents any nasty surprises.

Kropotkin said:
This, by the way, is why WSBK was brought under Dorna's umbrella. It had nothing to do with a power struggle, it was merely consolidating assets to make them more attractive to potential buyers.

I wouldn't have invested in motogp myself (being a big multinational investor like I am) until the elephant in the room (WSBK) was a known quantity. What if Rossi defected? motogp was dead, even if Stoner defected they would have problems, they had to reign it in to maintain their own price.

Kropotkin said:
There is more than one way of eliminating competition. Taking them over and sequestering their profits is another way, very common among software companies. In fact most of Microsoft's growth has been achieved this way.

And another one to fan the conspiracies. My sources tell me (this one's just for you Jum) that Carmelo isn't calling the shots any more. It's one of the Bridgepoint dudes....

This I'm totally not surprised about. Carmen can be a figurehead or a sacrificial lamb, time will tell. And the conspiracy theorist part of me (very small bit actually) tells me that how he is judged will be on the question of the promotion of one rider -v- the whole field. What he did (I believe) is the to the sports detriment. Will this be considered sound by the newcomers?

michaelm · Oct 27, 2012

Kropotkin said:
And another one to fan the conspiracies. My sources tell me (this one's just for you Jum) that Carmelo isn't calling the shots any more. It's one of the Bridgepoint dudes....

Seems very plausible. The whole thing makes sense from that point of view, the pension fund may have wanted more certainty in terms of the future of premier class racing before investing in dorna/motogp, and bridgepoint have made a handsome profit on their initial investment and from now on it is gravy for them.

What is dorna's deal with the FIM though? Do they own motogp in perpetuity or is there a time limit?

Mick D · Oct 27, 2012

David, I'm a little confused on the profit made by B-point. They bought Dorna for 500m € in 2005. When and how much did they pay for Infront? Now they have sold 40% of Dorna AND Infront for 400m €? Just wondering what B-point's investment in Infront was. Media has been reporting the profit made on Dorna but seems to be forgetting Infront...

Kropotkin · Oct 28, 2012

Mick D said:
David, I'm a little confused on the profit made by B-point. They bought Dorna for 500m € in 2005. When and how much did they pay for Infront? Now they have sold 40% of Dorna AND Infront for 400m €? Just wondering what B-point's investment in Infront was. Media has been reporting the profit made on Dorna but seems to be forgetting Infront...

They bought Infront Sports and Media for an undisclosed sum (a couple of billion, I believe), but they wanted ISM for the FIFA soccer rights, the winter sports, and a number of other high-profile sports which it owns. WSBK (Infront Motor Sports, or ISM) was an insignificant part of the whole package. I don't know what the Flamminis sold FGSport to Infront for. It would be foolish to believe it would be in the 100s of millions, probably more like the mid to high 10s of millions.

So Bridgepoint are making a profit on the deal. Not a massive one, but a profit nonetheless. Given the fact that everyone believed Bridgepoint paid too much for Dorna at the time, even breaking even would have been an achievement.

bluegreen · Oct 28, 2012

Good thing I wasn't counting on a pension anyway...

Kropotkin · Oct 28, 2012

Andy Roo said:
This I'm totally not surprised about. Carmen can be a figurehead or a sacrificial lamb, time will tell. And the conspiracy theorist part of me (very small bit actually) tells me that how he is judged will be on the question of the promotion of one rider -v- the whole field. What he did (I believe) is the to the sports detriment. Will this be considered sound by the newcomers?

While it is clearly true that there is one rider in the paddock who has the ear of Carmelo more than any other rider, you can also see that Carmelo has been acting for the future. Dorna has been a strong backer of the Red Bull Rookies, and this is starting to pay off dividends. There are multiple riders with varying nationalities coming through Moto3 at the moment, and Smith, moving up to MotoGP, is the product of the GP Academy, the forerunner of the Rookies. There is a wider range of talent coming through. This is the apogee of Spanish domination, it is all downhill from here. There will always be strong Spanish riders in the series, but in 5 years time, seeing an all-Spanish podium will be an extreme rarity, and seeing Spaniards win in all three classes will become less and less common.

I'm sure I don't need to remind you that local riders help sell TV rights. That's one of the main reasons behind Ezpeleta's backing of the Rookies, and part of the long-term plan.

That's the other side of the argument. MotoGP is in a really bad place right now, but there are promising signs for the future.

Andy Roo · Oct 28, 2012

Kropotkin said:
So Bridgepoint are making a profit on the deal. Not a massive one, but a profit nonetheless. Given the fact that everyone believed Bridgepoint paid too much for Dorna at the time, even breaking even would have been an achievement.

But sold it in a position to make a substantial profit.

Apropos the apogee of Spanish (and to a lesser degree Italian) domination, how does the future look for securing compelling sponsorships from other nationalities (their business sectors)?

I've always been a little pissed with many of the Australian companies, in particular the mining sector who make so much from the motoring industry not getting behind people like Stoner.

Spain announced its highest ever national unemployment figures today and the bucket may leak quite substantially from Euro investors. My fear for the sport is that too much has been placed on the ongoing goodwill and resources from too few places.

Is there something in place to try and bring some of these companies to the table?

Mick D · Oct 28, 2012

Andy Roo said:
Apropos the apogee of Spanish (and to a lesser degree Italian) domination, how does the future look for securing compelling sponsorships from other nationalities (their business sectors)?

Certainly Air Asia and Petronas (Malaysia) seem to be doing their part, the former sponsoring riders AND races. Thai Honda and PTT (Thai version of Petronas more or less) keep Wilairot in Moto2 and have expressed interest in bringing another Thai kid up into Moto3. If they put a race in Indonesia, local sponsors would flock to it.

Kropotkin · Oct 28, 2012

Mick D said:
Certainly Air Asia and Petronas (Malaysia) seem to be doing their part, the former sponsoring riders AND races. Thai Honda and PTT (Thai version of Petronas more or less) keep Wilairot in Moto2 and have expressed interest in bringing another Thai kid up into Moto3. If they put a race in Indonesia, local sponsors would flock to it.

Indonesia in 2014. Depends on a track being finished.

Kropotkin · Oct 28, 2012

Andy Roo said:
But sold it in a position to make a substantial profit.

Apropos the apogee of Spanish (and to a lesser degree Italian) domination, how does the future look for securing compelling sponsorships from other nationalities (their business sectors)?

I've always been a little pissed with many of the Australian companies, in particular the mining sector who make so much from the motoring industry not getting behind people like Stoner.

Spain announced its highest ever national unemployment figures today and the bucket may leak quite substantially from Euro investors. My fear for the sport is that too much has been placed on the ongoing goodwill and resources from too few places.

Is there something in place to try and bring some of these companies to the table?

First goal is increased TV coverage outside of Spain and Italy. Getting different nationalities on bikes is helping to do this. (Bradl in MotoGP, for example). Having 3 US races is also an attempt to crack into the US market, though that is proving hard. With great TV coverage and local riders, the hope is that this will make it more attractive to sponsors. I am trying to get some confirmation of a couple of things, but Dorna is its own worse enemy when it comes to sponsorship. Hopefully, the need to feed Bridgepoint will be diminished, and Dorna can stop grabbing sponsors for itself instead of for the teams.

Jumkie · Oct 28, 2012

Kropotkin said:
Indonesia in 2014. Depends on a track being finished.

What about India? Any chance of going there soon? S. Korea?

Kropotkin · Oct 28, 2012

Jumkie said:
What about India? Any chance of going there soon? S. Korea?

If the Flamminis hadn't sold WSBK to Buddh at a disgracefully cheap price (IIRC a couple of hundred thou, rather than several million), MotoGP would be going there in 2013. The Flamminis did this to trump MotoGP, nothing more, nothing less. They will lose money on that race because of the costs, and a number of teams won't go, again because of the costs. If MotoGP and WSBK had cooperated, there would have been both a MotoGP and a WSBK race in India.

Edited to add: I think there's a decent chance MotoGP could be in India in 2014.

Jumkie · Oct 28, 2012

Kropotkin said:
If the Flamminis hadn't sold WSBK to Buddh at a disgracefully cheap price (IIRC a couple of hundred thou, rather than several million), MotoGP would be going there in 2013. The Flamminis did this to trump MotoGP, nothing more, nothing less. They will lose money on that race because of the costs, and a number of teams won't go, again because of the costs. If MotoGP and WSBK had cooperated, there would have been both a MotoGP and a WSBK race in India.

Edited to add: I think there's a decent chance MotoGP could be in India in 2014.

Interesting. Proactive vs Inactive. Imho Wsbk sounds like they are making things happen while GP sits around letting things happen. (Or is this more confirmation bias on my part?)

Kropotkin · Oct 28, 2012

Jumkie said:
Interesting. Proactive vs Inactive. Imho Wsbk sounds like they are making things happen while GP sits around letting things happen. (Or is this more confirmation bias on my part?)

No, Jum, that's just plain ordinary bias.

Andy Roo · Oct 28, 2012

Jumkie said:
What about India? Any chance of going there soon? S. Korea?

Having done zero research and probably talking out my arse I wouldn't be surprised if South Korea actually produced a half decent motorcycle this decade. My boss drives a Hyundai and it pains me to admit what a good car it actually is If they do it with bikes then the market really will change.

Jumkie said:
Interesting. Proactive vs Inactive. Imho Wsbk sounds like they are making things happen while GP sits around letting things happen. (Or is this more confirmation bias on my part?)

David is slightly biased on bias. But I think my microsoft/Apple/Nokia analogy previously was apt. Once Apple only had 10% of the market, while the incumbents cruised. Sort of like a monster umbrella girl fantasy. If you're coming from behind you have to push

Motogp is the varsity and WSBK has been chasing them. WSBK had to be pushy while motogp was in business as usual mode.

I've banged on about the WSBK threat to motogp for a while now. If Dorna/Bridgepoint didn't take them over there was going to be a stability threat for investors.

I'm coming around to the idea of this, I don't think it will be that bad. It may even work.

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