bye bye 250s?

Sad news, but totally expected.

I guess not only Honda, but the rest of Japanese manufacturers who make 600cc sport bikes are pushing for this change to happen. That would kill, Aprilia and KTM the only ones who currently care about the category cause they don't have a 600cc 4 cyl. road bike engine.

The idea is not new, someone remembers Thunderbikes?? well it was basically the same. That was a total failure, let's see what happens with the new category.

I don't like it, IMO GP racing should be about prototypes, but I understand you cannot make 4stroke prototype engines for feeder series, it's too expensive.


By the way, Dorna's president is a Spanish businessman called Ezpeleta, but the shareholders are international (including Bernie Ecclestone)


FIM stands for Federation INTERNATIONALE de Motocyclisme, they are not French, every country has a say in it, the headquarters are in Geneve (Switzerland) that's why the name is in French. And the current president is from Venezuela.

.... THE WHALES
SAVE 2 STROKES

you'd have thought theyd have learned their lesson after messing up moto gp .
990-800
250-600
moto gp is like a stepping stone not the premier class

superbikes already nearly go near their lap times on some tracks

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tinks @ Sep 13 2007, 08:37 AM) [snapback]90341[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
you'd have thought theyd have learned their lesson after messing up moto gp .
990-800
250-600
moto gp is like a stepping stone not the premier class

superbikes already nearly go near their lap times on some tracks

sounds like motogp is being sabotaged. i recon it's bernie eccelstone pulling the strings, slow down motogp and make it boring so we can get some F1 fans back

I'm not sure it's a bad move because as somebody said we will see more manufacturers involved and why anybody thinks it's gonna be more expensive than 250?

"Stock" engines with prototype frames versus factory engines with prototype frames.

It can only be cheaper.

And 250 has been slowly dying for years...

But please, don't touch 125

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mylexicon @ Sep 13 2007, 03:41 AM) [snapback]90262[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Dorna have so many opportunities to do incredible things for competitive motorcycling and they always make decisions that seem completely incongruent with motorcycling. I don't get these poeple, is there not one visionary among them?

250 strokers are irrelevant compared to their 4 stroke counterparts which means the lower GP classes are not showcases for manufacturers---it's mainly advertising fluff. If you make the lower classes 4 strokes, costs are going to skyrocket despite the controls you put on the bikes.

600cc is a universal displacement and Dorna have a chance to lead from the front and make a big change in motorcycling. Get the manufacturers together and design a spec bike. Put a life cycle on the bike of 8-10 years. Dorna can't force small factories to produce multiple prototypes and expect them to hang around. Keep the small classes cheap, let the good talent rise to the top, and let the manufacturers get their advertising at a discount.

The spec design they choose should be easily reverse engineered to the street. The manufacturers will enjoy not spending money developing the 600s and they can redesign the fairings, pipes and other street legal things then sell them in foreign markets around the world. Win on Sunday sell on Tuesday will take on a new meaning.

Once 600cc production is standardized 600cc superbike racing will be standardized because they will adopt the race ready Dorna version. That means an American or British or Japanese kid can race at home on a Dorna machine then jump to the GP series if they're good enough.

Manufacturers win b/c they dump their development budgets. A small amount of the money spent developing can go towards recruiting good talent. If talent recruitment goes up, so does rider salary. So these little kids will start making some bucks. Furthermore, amateur racers win b/c they get a cheap race machine with an abundace of parts. Think about it, you could salvage 600cc parts for your Honda from a Kawasaki

Do the same thing with 125s, except make them 500cc twins that are easily modified for street use.

Dorna wins too, b/c they have variation across the classes--two spec series for rider recruitment (one of which runs 4cyinders and the other runs 2 cylinders) then 1 prototype 800cc series.

P.S. Dorna, increase the tire size in the lower classes--thanks.


LEXI I TOTALLY AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAY & QUOTE!!!!...with Dorna’s views are!!!...And what you think about this subject!!!...get rid of the 250, 125 two strokes...”THERE IRELIVANT’ to today’s clean AIR POLLUTION CONTROLLED ENVIROMENT!!!...Two stokes ‘stink”...and as far as the 4 stroke 600cc, I agree that WSS”s are just a copout and please let Dorna make the rules and I’m sure that it will all be competitive...and when you all say that Dorna is Spanish, French!!!???...so what...I’m sure that their intention is for better racing and there is NO nationalism involved in their decisions!!!.... My opinion is this...Get rid of the 250, 125 two strokes!!!...There USELESS!!!...MEAN NOTHING TO ANYONE ON THIS PLANNET EARTH!!!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mylexicon @ Sep 13 2007, 03:41 AM) [snapback]90262[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Dorna have so many opportunities to do incredible things for competitive motorcycling and they always make decisions that seem completely incongruent with motorcycling. I don't get these poeple, is there not one visionary among them?

250 strokers are irrelevant compared to their 4 stroke counterparts which means the lower GP classes are not showcases for manufacturers---it's mainly advertising fluff. If you make the lower classes 4 strokes, costs are going to skyrocket despite the controls you put on the bikes.

600cc is a universal displacement and Dorna have a chance to lead from the front and make a big change in motorcycling. Get the manufacturers together and design a spec bike. Put a life cycle on the bike of 8-10 years. Dorna can't force small factories to produce multiple prototypes and expect them to hang around. Keep the small classes cheap, let the good talent rise to the top, and let the manufacturers get their advertising at a discount.

The spec design they choose should be easily reverse engineered to the street. The manufacturers will enjoy not spending money developing the 600s and they can redesign the fairings, pipes and other street legal things then sell them in foreign markets around the world. Win on Sunday sell on Tuesday will take on a new meaning.

Once 600cc production is standardized 600cc superbike racing will be standardized because they will adopt the race ready Dorna version. That means an American or British or Japanese kid can race at home on a Dorna machine then jump to the GP series if they're good enough.

Manufacturers win b/c they dump their development budgets. A small amount of the money spent developing can go towards recruiting good talent. If talent recruitment goes up, so does rider salary. So these little kids will start making some bucks. Furthermore, amateur racers win b/c they get a cheap race machine with an abundace of parts. Think about it, you could salvage 600cc parts for your Honda from a Kawasaki

Do the same thing with 125s, except make them 500cc twins that are easily modified for street use.

Dorna wins too, b/c they have variation across the classes--two spec series for rider recruitment (one of which runs 4cyinders and the other runs 2 cylinders) then 1 prototype 800cc series.

P.S. Dorna, increase the tire size in the lower classes--thanks.


mylexicon...TOTALLY AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAY & QUOTE!!!!...AND with what Dorna’s views are!!!...And also what you think about this subject!!!...please please please...Get Rid of the 250, 125 two strokes...”THERE IRELIVANT’ to today’s clean AIR POLLUTION CONTROLLED ENVIROMENT!!!...Two stokes ‘stink”...and as far as the 4 stroke 600cc, I agree that WSS”s are just a copout and please let Dorna make the rules and I’m sure that it will all be competitive...and when you all say that Dorna is Spanish, French!!!???...so what...I’m sure that their intention is for better racing and there is NO nationalism involved in their decisions!!!.... My opinion is this...Get rid of the 250, 125 two strokes!!!...There USELESS!!!...MEAN NOTHING TO ANYONE ON THIS PLANNET EARTH!!!

Racing has to move with the times or it`ll stagnate,we need to sit back and observe at this time .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DRILL666 @ Sep 13 2007, 01:47 PM) [snapback]90379[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Racing has to move with the times or it`ll stagnate,we need to sit back and observe at this time .

you make a good pint drill.
personally i dont think 2 strokes are finished, i think they will return. they have a lot going for them. there simple ,powerful and quite cheap to build.
the only real thing against them is pollution,but with bio fuel's and oils on the horizon i think they will be back .

I don't think this is a bad idea and I love the 800's. KTM & Aprillia have good 4 stroke technology so don't worry about them and what is the payback for them continuing with 2 strokes they can't sell them anywhere. I just hope that more factories get into the series. From the article the rules look to be cost restricting with steel brakes etc. and it should be restricted so that everyone can race there to prepare for an unlimited MotoGP class.

2 strokes time to retire...

Bad for Wah-prilia and KTM, good because NEW constructors may join!

It's better for the sport!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CSCVAW @ Sep 13 2007, 03:30 AM) [snapback]90365[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
LEXI I TOTALLY AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAY & QUOTE!!!!...with Dorna’s views are!!!...And what you think about this subject!!!...get rid of the 250, 125 two strokes...”THERE IRELIVANT’ to today’s clean AIR POLLUTION CONTROLLED ENVIROMENT!!!...Two stokes ‘stink”...and as far as the 4 stroke 600cc, I agree that WSS”s are just a copout and please let Dorna make the rules and I’m sure that it will all be competitive...and when you all say that Dorna is Spanish, French!!!???...so what...I’m sure that their intention is for better racing and there is NO nationalism involved in their decisions!!!.... My opinion is this...Get rid of the 250, 125 two strokes!!!...There USELESS!!!...MEAN NOTHING TO ANYONE ON THIS PLANNET EARTH!!!

When did I say that? Dorna have a chance to lead, and make the 600cc machines that are raced all over the world more standardized. I think that helps rider recruitment, which seems to be the only reason smaller bikes are raced.

I don't want Dorna to make all the rules. Truth is, if there is a spec bike, Dorna can't control who wins or loses because every team has already signed onto a binding agreement. So Dorna can take their greasy palms off the sport.

2 strokes aren't absolutely[\b] irrelevant, it's just that all the development expenditures don't have an accompanying revenue stream. If they can find a cheap combustible lubricant that burns clean, 2 strokes will be envogue again.

If spec bike isn't good, just run spec engine. Hoist the mill out of some mid 90's CBR, update it so it make 100 or so hp, then hand out stock ECU's and tell em to go racing.

Moto GP die? I doubt it, so long as it is still considered the top of all motorcycle racing why would it "die". Change yes, but die, no. Moto GP is the only motorcycle racing circuit that truly travels the whole world, bringing racing everywhere (WSBK does as well but not as much). Moto GP will still be the place where the top riders will be recruited to race in.

KTM makes excellent motorcycles, they are an amazing company that continues to get better and better, learning from mistakes and engineering better machines. I look forward to a 4 stroke racing bike from them, and the various incarnations of bikes that will be available to the public.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DRILL666 @ Sep 13 2007, 10:47 PM) [snapback]90379[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Racing has to move with the times or it`ll stagnate,we need to sit back and observe at this time .

I agree
In Motorcross 250cc 4 strokes replaced 125 and 450cc 4 strokes replace the 250's. I said this before think this idea would work. 2 strokes are great because of there simplicity, but they are a dying breed.
Aprillia make a 450 V-twin, KTM,Honda,Yamaha,Suzuki,Kawasaki all good 4 strokes and would be great to see all these manufactures in the lower classes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(alex29 @ Sep 13 2007, 08:05 PM) [snapback]90445[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Aprillia make a 450 V-twin, KTM,Honda,Yamaha,Suzuki,Kawasaki all good 4 strokes and would be great to see all these manufactures in the lower classes.


Very true, and with more manufacturers hopefully comes more factory rides and also the possibility of more privateer and satellite teams.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(coriolis @ Sep 13 2007, 10:13 AM) [snapback]90359[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I'm not sure it's a bad move because as somebody said we will see more manufacturers involved and why anybody thinks it's gonna be more expensive than 250?

"Stock" engines with prototype frames versus factory engines with prototype frames.

It can only be cheaper.

And 250 has been slowly dying for years...

But please, don't touch 125


its hardly like they need more manufacturers considering there are already lots of rdiers on the grid
its moto gp which needs beefing up

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(phleg @ Sep 13 2007, 07:16 PM) [snapback]90427[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Bad for Wah-prilia and KTM, good because NEW constructors may join!

It's better for the sport!

Spot on Phleq!!!

Well the Japs might join in, but you will lose Aprilia and KTM (unless they build a 600cc road bike).

And I prefer the companies that stayed in 125cc and 250cc doing 2stroke prototypes showing compromise than the other companies that run away cause the treehuggers huffed and puffed a bit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(xx CURVE xx @ Sep 14 2007, 09:28 PM) [snapback]90675[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
125s to 250 4strokes...250s to 450 4strokes....

All manufacturers make them already, hell Aprillia already has a v-twin 450...thats the way to go..


Sounds fine to me - must be prototypes though. Otherwise it is the death of 2 gp classes and what really makes it so much more special than f1.