Bring on the beast!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marijke @ Oct 14 2008, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the kawa screamer has beast-ish qualities

to a girl

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 15 2008, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>to a girl

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#46 @ Oct 15 2008, 04:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Come on guys...still no answer for carbon frame Please...maybe someone with racing experience can figured it out.

I'll try too.

Carbon fiber has never been a viable solution as Barry said b/c it doesn't flex well.

The reason carbon fiber is now a viable frame material is due to bike design. On modern GP bikes the swingarm bolts directly to the engine casing, so the engine-casing/swingarm/frame are all major stress bearing members.

Nowadays frame flex isn't as important as it once was, so companies are encouraged to drop steel/aluminium for lightweight materials.

It's also a good marketing ploy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 15 2008, 05:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll try too.

Carbon fiber has never been a viable solution as Barry said b/c it doesn't flex well.

The reason carbon fiber is now a viable frame material is due to bike design. On modern GP bikes the swingarm bolts directly to the engine casing, so the engine-casing/swingarm/frame are all major stress bearing members.

Nowadays frame flex isn't as important as it once was, so companies are encouraged to drop steel/aluminium for lightweight materials.

It's also a good marketing ploy.

Wot no conspiracy??? Your slipping Lex

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Oct 15 2008, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"beastestes" is just wrong, man. How about "Beast Classic" & "Beast Lite".
" BEAST LIGHT" !!!! that is great!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Oct 15 2008, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>ok ..... I'l try a serious answer ......


As with all frames rigidity v's flex is a tuneable thing ......

seems a fairly "known science" with steel frames ( possibly why a low budget company like Duc. have persisted with it )

and I beleive that each factory that runs aluminium frames has gone through a huge learning curve with aluminium frames ...... but ..... its pretty protected "knowlwdge" ..... and would be very "in house".


Carbon Fibre ........... well it really suits Ducati ........ why? ........ they want to get to a more tuneable material than steel provides .... and ....... development time/costs. To form a partnership, with a producer/lab/manufacturer, and produce rapid changes in frames is easier with CF than Al. And given that Duc. has already some connection with Ferrari ( a relationship that appears more than just parochialism ) .... I assume that their is some availablity of expertise already waiting at Ducati's disposal.


Aluminium frames are the realm of big money outfits ........ CF is known as a medium that suits low quantity prototype parts, where ..... fast development, easy modification, high quality control, and easy analysis of part stresses .... are requirements .....
I think so too.Maybe they have some kind of connection with ferrari that helps them analyse and develope it,i don't know.Seeing that the frame developement is going to be really important and especially the speed of the developement for 2009 with new tires.
I read somewhere that with carbon frame you would get a very direct respons compared to ,say aluminium that is softer and numbs the input the rider gets.
So if that is true it could also be easier for the rider to feel the limit even if it is compared to a really stiff steel frame.Just a thought.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Oct 15 2008, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think so too.Maybe they have some kind of connection with ferrari that helps them analyse and develope it,i don't know.Seeing that the frame developement is going to be really important and especially the speed of the developement for 2009 with new tires.
I read somewhere that with carbon frame you would get a very direct respons compared to ,say aluminium that is softer and numbs the input the rider gets.
So if that is true it could also be easier for the rider to feel the limit even if it is compared to a really stiff steel frame.Just a thought.
Well Ducati is also in dev with them or some of ferrari to help with the new twin motor configuration. They may be abandoning the desmodromic system I read.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Oct 15 2008, 10:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well Ducati is also in dev with them or some of ferrari to help with the new twin motor configuration. They may be abandoning the desmodromic system I read.
Really!
They must have found a really good alternative then.
I think it's great that they work together,ferrari has as ducati (Filipo Prezioso and others)some tallanted minds no doubt.I have kind of wished for a long time that they could run a twin in moto gp,but it's not possible because of the power output can't be as high as v4.The only hope is a change in the weight rules(don't know what it's called).If a twin could be allowed to be 125 kg or something it might work.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Oct 16 2008, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Really!
They must have found a really good alternative then.
I think it's great that they work together,ferrari has as ducati (Filipo Prezioso and others)some tallanted minds no doubt.I have kind of wished for a long time that they could run a twin in moto gp,but it's not possible because of the power output can't be as high as v4.The only hope is a change in the weight rules(don't know what it's called).If a twin could be allowed to be 125 kg or something it might work.
Ok I found the article. It was in the october 08 issue of Cycle World. Ok so It basicly states that Ducati is working with HPE technical cinsulting which is owned by Enzo Ferrari's son Piero to develop what is promised to be the ULTIMATE TWIN. They are also saying that the desmo system would possibly be reserved for Racing models and there will be chains instead of belts. Intresting that they are still stickin to the twins. I would say screw it and punch out the 990 motor to a full 999 and run all over the competition. I think also they are staying away from that cause it would make the bike that everyone that paid the 75gs for it pissed since they would have to homolagate it and make it affordable. But that would be bad .... .... Aprilia has the RSV4 coming out so maybe they say screw it and run the damn thing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#46 @ Oct 16 2008, 12:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thanks guys! But I still have a question, if CF doesn't flex well how's the stability?(e.g. braking, enter/exit the corner). As Lex said that on nowadays bike the engine-casing/swingarm/frame are all major stress bearing members so it makes the CF viable, BUT if the CF itself doesn't flex well than how about the possibility of chattering?
AFAIK Honda (if not mistaken) already tried CF and they decided to go back to Al due the stability issues.
Don't forget that Stoner and Melandri tested the 09 with the carbon fiber frame and at least Stoner was faster with it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Oct 15 2008, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well Ducati is also in dev with them or some of ferrari to help with the new twin motor configuration. They may be abandoning the desmodromic system I read.

If they've cracked the rubik's cube of electromagnetic valve actuation, I'm gonna cry tears of joy.

Imaging getting your valves adjusted with a computer program that simply makes timing adjustments. I'm so happy right now just thinking about it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 16 2008, 02:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll try too.

Carbon fiber has never been a viable solution as Barry said b/c it doesn't flex well.

uh oh ....... I'm beginning to doubt your conspiracis now Lex!

CF most certainly flexes ....... check out all the "hoohickey" that went on with runners with prosthetic legs having an advantage over "limbed" runners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Pistorius

also CF skateboard decks

I have a few CFfly rods that flex pretty good

and a nice flexy CF violin bow

no ...... CF can be easily tuned to give just the right flex

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#46 @ Oct 16 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thanks guys! But I still have a question, if CF doesn't flex well how's the stability?(e.g. braking, enter/exit the corner). As Lex said that on nowadays bike the engine-casing/swingarm/frame are all major stress bearing members so it makes the CF viable, BUT if the CF itself doesn't flex well than how about the possibility of chattering?
AFAIK Honda (if not mistaken) already tried CF and they decided to go back to Al due the stability issues.


Lex is wrong! .... CF flexes very well and can be easily tuned to give flex where and how it id required.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Oct 15 2008, 09:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>uh oh ....... I'm beginning to doubt your conspiracis now Lex!

CF most certainly flexes ....... check out all the "hoohickey" that went on with runners with prosthetic legs having an advantage over "limbed" runners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Pistorius

also CF skateboard decks

I have a few CFfly rods that flex pretty good

and a nice flexy CF violin bow

no ...... CF can be easily tuned to give just the right flex

Barry, you are making allusions to a wide variety of modern sporting equipment in which carbon fiber is a material with a good rate of flex. Obviously, carbon fiber can be quite flexible.

I'm am oversimplifying the work of 20 years of motogp development. Carbon fiber has never been good in GP motorcycles because it was too stiff. It was too stiff b/c it had to support the weight of the engine/rider/swingarm-forces and still give good feedback to the rider. It's still too stiff but now that moto design has evolved and the swingarm and engine casing are major stress bearing members, the flex of the frame isn't as crucial as it used to be.

Plus, I'm pretty sure carbon fiber isn't as easy to dial in as metal alloys. Metal alloys can simply be welded to one another. Without much effort team can adjust a metal alloy frame to adjust flex at the front/middle/rear of the bike. They can also simply adjust the recipes for the alloys throughout the frame. I don't think adjustability is quite as easy on traditionally designed carbon fiber frames.

If I'm not mistaken carbon fiber (though stronger than most metal alloys) actually breaks down more quickly under cyclic loading as well. As the fibers begin to splinter the torsional rigidity of the frame breaks down. As you probably know, torsional flex is a huge part of passive steering on modern GP motorcycles.

Now that much of a bikes torsion is controlled by the swing arm and engine casing, the frame doesn't need to have the same torsional properties it once had.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Oct 15 2008, 04:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Boy I hope your wrong about that one. Especially for Nicky's case.

After these 2 years of pondering, I have come to think that riding the Ducati a' la Casey is "just" a matter of guts and determination. Keep that throttle open and ignore the shakes and screams and your mind that tells you to slow down. Mind you, we are speaking of super-guts here, because in GP 'guts' beyond any ordinary level must be given for granted, even for the very last rider on the grid.

The proof? That little spider seen hanging on the side of bikes, called Elias. For most of the season on the Alice Ducati, he was even slower than Macho 'violet' Melandri. Then for a couple of races, when his seat was at stake and he needed results to make sure he had a job next year, suddenly he was going for the podium! So 2+2=4, he was just pushing his limits and magically his Ducati began lapping faster. As soon as the seat was safe, he resumed his usual pace...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Oct 16 2008, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>After these 2 years of pondering, I have come to think that riding the Ducati a' la Casey is "just" a matter of guts and determination. Keep that throttle open and ignore the shakes and screams and your mind that tells you to slow down. Mind you, we are speaking of super-guts here, because in GP 'guts' beyond any ordinary level must be given for granted, even for the very last rider on the grid.

The proof? That little spider seen hanging on the side of bikes, called Elias. For most of the season on the Alice Ducati, he was even slower than Macho 'violet' Melandri. Then for a couple of races, when his seat was at stake and he needed results to make sure he had a job next year, suddenly he was going for the podium! So 2+2=4, he was just pushing his limits and magically his Ducati began lapping faster. As soon as the seat was safe, he resumed his usual pace...


I think you are very close to the mark J4rn0.
The bike is fast if you are brave enough to ride it through it's sometimes violent protests.
But who knows perhaps GP9 will be different completely.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Oct 16 2008, 05:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>uh oh ....... I'm beginning to doubt your conspiracis now Lex!

CF most certainly flexes ....... check out all the "hoohickey" that went on with runners with prosthetic legs having an advantage over "limbed" runners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Pistorius

also CF skateboard decks

I have a few CFfly rods that flex pretty good

and a nice flexy CF violin bow

no ...... CF can be easily tuned to give just the right flex
now i know your not to bright berry but even you must realize that a long carbon pole will have more flex than a carbon box.shape plays as much of a part as material.
it's been stated that this carbon frame is too rigid and they will have to build flex into the suspension to make the bike ridable

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 16 2008, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Plus, I'm pretty sure carbon fiber isn't as easy to dial in as metal alloys. Metal alloys can simply be welded to one another. Without much effort team can adjust a metal alloy frame to adjust flex at the front/middle/rear of the bike. They can also simply adjust the recipes for the alloys throughout the frame. I don't think adjustability is quite as easy on traditionally designed carbon fiber frames.

Metal alloys are not easy to mix up, the difficulty occurs because they are blended under heat and heat reacts differently to different metals. Alloying is getting better but its still not hugely accurate.
And then welding metals changes the metals properties ..... especially each side of the welds. So again the use of CF increases the likelyhood that they will get a predictable article produced.

The other benefit of CF is that the properties are allready very consistent, alloys can and do go wrong in the alloying process. Therefore most changes in CF structures will be done by physical dimensional changes, not reliant on getting a good batch of an alloy.

CF has been used very successfully in chasis design, in high performance motor vehicles ( just look at F1), and has long ago usurped Al. alloys