Bridgestone 2010

Jumkie said:

What was "technical" about it? Sounded like a lot of projection and speculation.





Championship management. What don't you understand about this concept? Yes, tires do matter alot. I've said this before...remember?

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And engine management. No doubt Dani has picked up his game, as has Honda, but i also think Yamaha has backed down the power to make the engines last, which is anothe ........ side affect of this ...... up rule. Lorenzo was on pace for a record year in the first half of the season. Now we get to see him limp it on home for the title. That is robbing the fan, and robbing Lorenzo. Of course im sure the fans of some other riders are happy, with this rule in place, most performance records are secure forever

L8Braker said:

shoulder problems, broken legs, limited tire choices, 800's, electronics, faulty knee pucks, floppy visors, parade style racing, man on the grassy knowl, what else can we add? motogp racing has been boring and has not seen a knock down dragout style fight since 06.

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man on the grassy knowll

Jumkie said:

Both Stoner and Nicky have lost front. I'd say its a combination of .... front suspension, as you will recall, they tried to solve this by using a bandaid of winglets, combined with perhaps tire issues. J4rno wants to believe the tires are the "problem" to explain Lorenzo's superior pace.

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I know most people are not big fans of Wayne Gardner but he was predicting back in May that the front end problem was with engine location and would require a major redesign of the chassis. According to Gardner, Hayden and Stoner would be stuck with this problem all year and it looks to me like he was correct.



http://www.waynegardnerapproved.com/wr10.htm

BKmoto said:

I know most people are not big fans of Wayne Gardner but he was predicting back in May that the front end problem was with engine location and would require a major redesign of the chassis. According to Gardner, Hayden and Stoner would be stuck with this problem all year and it looks to me like he was correct.



http://www.waynegardnerapproved.com/wr10.htm

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Good read, and i know SBK is not GP, but Tommy Hayden made the comment about the Yosh factory bike, felt unstable as hell until you made yourself mentally push past what you thought would make it crash, then it smoothed out.

BKmoto said:

According to Gardner, Hayden and Stoner would be stuck with this problem all year and it looks to me like he was correct.

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Interesting. I'm sure they will sort that out next year.

Good thread, despite the usual's trying to troll for food.





Again brings up the same argument which I've made more than a few times.......



Why should the best riders in the world, racing in the only two wheeled 'prototype' series, have to settle for Wall mart style tyre supply?



IMO it is the biggest issue in a plethora of huge technical .... ups in Motogp. The one tyre rule simply doesn't work, nor does the fuel reg or the engine number reg. Sort these three out and maybe the electronics will be reduced all by themselves.........

J4rn0 said:

Gardner writes interesting things as always, but what he says does not explain why the Ducati was a winning bike in 2007, 2008 and 2009, and suddenly in 2010 it has developed "chassis" problems.

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It does to me. In 2010 Ducati went big bang. My first thoughts were its going to have grip balance problems ........ it has. I still think thats their main problem. You can see it in the way Stoner is riding the think now, compared to 09 the rear end looks more planted ( not sliding everywhere ) hence the front has to cope with the new rear traction feel. I don't know if you guys have ever ridden on slime.ice, wet claypan etc, but when you get the back end sliding everywhere the front feels comparatively more planted ( as its not a driven wheel) than on a more tractible surface.

When taking a corner a bike is a balance of grip, any little peaks past the traction point will cause it to let go. If you back is gripping well then the extra grip now put higher momentary loads on the front around the cenre of gravity of the bike ( not the vertical centre of gravity but the plan view COG. ) When the arse was loose it would have just have lost energy of the momentary impulse to fly off at a tangent to the corner, and not have placed such an impulse to lose grip at the front.





D'oh! ..... here's me trying to explain it on a forum on the net.



Ok simple example ...... dirt track ....... most folk ran a "trials" tyre rear, if you put a full knobby on you just push the front straight out of a corner, getting the back end loose made the front both feel more planted and actually helped steer the round the corner by changing the driving rear force now a vector of force into the corner. .... d'oh!



Anyway by changing the rear grip characteristics dramatically by changing the bike to Big Bang, they have done more than can be repaired with just tyres available in the range they are provided with.

That and I think Stoner suits a loose back end.





I don't agree with Gardner on the bike not falling in a hole at certain speeds. Thats precisely how I felt about the old 86 87 Husky when they came out. They were crap at any speed below warp speed, Off road I know but meh, it does happen. I would have thought with the old 500's especially Gardner would not say this as you had a bike that was all rear grip grip grip then LOOSE LOOSE LOOSE ( when the power came ) then tending toward grip as the bike drive potenial came closer to its actual speed. Butanyway thats not a discussion for on here

Tom said:

You mean the much less powerful, less physically demanding bikes...

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Yeah, that's what he means... try watching Faster again or for the first time Tom... 500s were not "less physically demanding bikes", mon ami...

Tom said:

Of course, tyres are the single most important component of a racing motorcycle.

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Really... I always thought "the single most important component of a racing motorcycle" was the rider. The way I see it, Tom, is if you put you or me on, say, Capper's Suzi, with the best tyres out there he's still gonna kick our ..... all over the track...

Jumkie said:

Is it possible Lorenzo simply knows how to properly push this particular type of rubber as oppose to some unseen advantage? (Which is what J4rno is implying)

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I don't think he was implying that at all. I believe that J4 was trying to initiate a discussion around the effects of the control tyre and its construction, no more, no less... J4 - what exactly were you intending?

J4rn0 said:

...I'm beginning to think that all the problems Rossi and Stoner are having this year are connected with the 2010 Bridgestones.

Rossi and Stoner were known for their preference for extra hard front tires (body and compound) ... Why? Because they like to ride a well-loaded front-end, and they have been capable of using front tires that, to other riders, felt too slippery and tricky.



But come 2010, and Bridgestone "simplify" the tire choice, reducing it to only 2 compounds and just 1 body.

That 1 body isn't the hard type any more.

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First, you're right about Rossi's and Stoner's struggles pertaining to the tires. It's been quite widely circulated that both believe the front tire is too hard and takes too long to get up to temperature. Second, Rossi doesn't prefer a hard front tire, he likes a really hard rear tire. IIRC he's ridden soft front hard rear most of his MotoGP career.



Imo, this new harder tire is actually conducive to a higher front end bias. If the tires are too hard at the front to get up to temperature, it means the bikes need more front end bias to raise the operating temperature. Rossi said as much in his interview with Italian TV according to the quote you've provided. Harder front tire benefits two people imo: 1. Lorenzo who rides a very aggressive cornerspeed style and who scrubs off a lot of speed with the front 2. Pedrosa who prefers a slightly higher forward weight bias b/c that's what Honda have always had (mass centralization is more front end than an L-twin Ducati).



Two people get burned by a hard front tire: 1. Rossi who developed the rearward-bias M1 2. Stoner who is accustomed to riding the Ducati GP which is naturally rearward biased b/c of the engine config. This season the "standard" Lorenzo Yamaha appears to be considerably better than Rossi's development. This is why Rossi said it would take time to win again. He was in the middle of developing the bike to work with different tires when he suffered the injury at Mugello.



Anytime Honda benefits by a change you're obliged to consider conspiracy, but the normalcy of the situation is so plain. If Bridgestone are going to use fewer compounds, they'd make harder tires to make sure the tires can always go the distance. Furthermore, if Bridgestone went out of their way to throw Honda a bone, Honda certainly screwed things up by building a new bike at the beginning of the season.



I agree it's the tires, but my technical interpretation is the opposite of what you have concluded. The tires like front end stress b/c it gets them up to temperature. Rearward bias is a disadvantage.

Talpa said:

Good thread, despite the usual's trying to troll for food.





Again brings up the same argument which I've made more than a few times.......



Why should the best riders in the world, racing in the only two wheeled 'prototype' series, have to settle for Wall mart style tyre supply?



IMO it is the biggest issue in a plethora of huge technical .... ups in Motogp. The one tyre rule simply doesn't work, nor does the fuel reg or the engine number reg. Sort these three out and maybe the electronics will be reduced all by themselves.........

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I want to show you something. This is the proposed tire concept for 1000cc WSBK competition:

Treaded tires are required, with the profiling remaining visible after the race, complying with prescribed minimum area , position, depth, width and patter. Tire manufacturers will draft the regulation.

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They tried something similar in 2008 in MotoGP, but it failed when Bridgestone developed a special Rossi/Stoner front tire that had mega flexible contact patches. If the FIM can't regulate the contact patch, they can't keep a tire war going without fear of escalating costs and performance. Dorna imposed a control tire despite and insurrection by Ducati to switch to Michelin and keep the 60/40 balance between the tire suppliers that was necessary to maintain the tire war.



That's why we have a WalMart supply tire. Bridgestone got cute with F1 technology. Dorna and the FIM got spooked b/c they couldn't control the front tire so they killed the tire war.



That gay-... squishy tire killed the tire war, and until the FIM or the tire manufacturers find a new way to regulate the contact patch, a tire war is impossible, imo.



http://www.superbikeplanet.com/010930fimregs.htm

mylexicon said:

I want to show you something. This is the proposed tire concept for 1000cc WSBK competition:







They tried something similar in 2008 in MotoGP, but it failed when Bridgestone developed a special Rossi/Stoner front tire that had mega flexible contact patches. If the FIM can't regulate the contact patch, they can't keep a tire war going without fear of escalating costs and performance. Dorna imposed a control tire despite and insurrection by Ducati to switch to Michelin and keep the 60/40 balance between the tire suppliers that was necessary to maintain the tire war.



That's why we have a WalMart supply tire. Bridgestone got cute with F1 technology. Dorna and the FIM got spooked b/c they couldn't control the front tire so they killed the tire war.



That gay-... squishy tire killed the tire war, and until the FIM or the tire manufacturers find a new way to regulate the contact patch, a tire war is impossible, imo.



http://www.superbikeplanet.com/010930fimregs.htm

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Thanks mate, interesting stuff

Jumkie said:

Why? What evidence do you offer for "agreeing"? Results? Is it possible Lorenzo simply knows how to properly push this particular type of rubber as oppose to some unseen advantage? (Which is what J4rno is implying. )How about set up, perhaps Lorenzo has found the ideal set up for the tire in question? (Which is not a issue of better vs problematic tire, but rather than proper set up solutions). Why must the tire "suit" Lorenzo in your estimation? If so, what does this say about tire's "suiting" riders and the results they achieve with them?

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My main point was that lorenzo's performance is on the same tyres as everyone else and his results should not be detracted from; I imagine you agree with this.



At least as far as stoner is concerned I have agreed with lex's theory from the start, that the performance of casey and the ducati in 2007was contributed to significantly by the then current bridgestone hard tyre, an advantage (if there was one) fairly won by ducati and bridgestone given that they had developed the bike and the tyre together over several years. My evidence for it suiting casey was that I think most (probably all dry race wins) of his race wins in 2007 were on that tyre. As j4rno says there was still a bridgestone hard tyre in 2008 ( if not quite the same tyre, as lex again postulated) which appeared to be only rideable by rossi and stoner. I am not so sure about rossi, but stoner appears to hardly ever choose the currently hardest tyre this year,and has not won at all, both fairly drastic changes, and loses the front a lot as he did in 2006 subsequent to which he was fairly vociferous about the michelin front not suiting him, leading to my agrereement that the 2010 bridgestone tyre doesn't suit him. As you imply there are of course multiple other possible explanations including the carbon fibre chassis, big bang engine, him not being able to sort the bike or adapt his ridng style to the new exigencies, the "rossification/yamafication" of the bike to a configuration that does not suit him, him being pissed with ducati for favouring both lorenzo and rossi over him, him being a confidence rider with that confidence being eroded by his early season crashes etc.

J4rn0 said:

Now, an interesting bit after the QP today that apparently gives the nod to Gardner's theory: I heard that the improvement in Stoner's performance has come thanks to a re-positioning of the engine in the Ducati... it seems they shifted it backwards a bit, changing the attach points for the swingarm. Somehow, a completely new geometry. That seems to have suddenly solved Casey's problems with the front-end... too good to be true... ?

Honestly I thought Ducati had just pumped up the engine specs for this QP (the Ducatis were the fastest down that long straight if I'm not wrong), but this news is very interesting. I guess we'll have to wait for tomorrow's race to know better -- and probably for the subsequent races, to be sure. I surely hope that after Honda, Ducati also have sorted their problems.

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Well at last! ........ maybe JB is working on it already .... only time willl tell if theyhave fixed it though.



There is allways a fatal flaw in any theories such as your 2010 Bridgestone tyre theory, ie. why are there other riders doing real well on them

J4rn0 said:

Now, an interesting bit after the QP today that apparently gives the nod to Gardner's theory: I heard that the improvement in Stoner's performance has come thanks to a re-positioning of the engine in the Ducati... it seems they shifted it backwards a bit, changing the attach points for the swingarm. Somehow, a completely new geometry. That seems to have suddenly solved Casey's problems with the front-end... too good to be true... ?

Honestly I thought Ducati had just pumped up the engine specs for this QP (the Ducatis were the fastest down that long straight if I'm not wrong), but this news is very interesting. I guess we'll have to wait for tomorrow's race to know better -- and probably for the subsequent races, to be sure. I surely hope that after Honda, Ducati also have sorted their problems.

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Close, but Dani's Honda is again the fastest bike on the circuit.

BarryMachine said:

There is allways a fatal flaw in any theories such as your 2010 Bridgestone tyre theory, ie. why are there other riders doing real well on them

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That isn't a "flaw in his theory" IT IS THE POINT OF IT!.. Every rider has their own preference which gives them confidence and suits their style... Why shouldn't they all be able to choose the tyre compounds and bodies which allow every rider to perform to the best of their individual abilities? I don't care if its Kallio or Casey... every rider should get the rubber they want.