Bridgestone 2010

J4rn0 · Sep 16, 2010

...I'm beginning to think that all the problems Rossi and Stoner are having this year are connected with the 2010 Bridgestones.

Rossi and Stoner were known for their preference for extra hard front tires (body and compound) ... Why? Because they like to ride a well-loaded front-end, and they have been capable of using front tires that, to other riders, felt too slippery and tricky.

But come 2010, and Bridgestone "simplify" the tire choice, reducing it to only 2 compounds and just 1 body.

That 1 body isn't the hard type any more.

And what happens? Stoner begins to crash, luckily without consequences; Rossi crashes at Mugello, with rather serious consequences. Stoner has avoided injuries but is uncapable to ride as fast as usual. These new tires seem to require an even stronger rear-end bias and he cannot load the front-end of his Ducati as he likes. If he loads the front in spite of everything, he's immediately fast again -- but he crashes.

What about Rossi?

After Mugello he misses 4 races. When he comes back at the Sachs, he opts for using Lorenzo's settings which load the front less... Lorenzo is fastest with those settings, but they don't work as well for Rossi. Why? They are wonderfully suited to the 2010 Bridgestones, they seem to be almost crash-safe; but one has to ride differently with them.

That is why at Indy Rossi says in an interview to Italian TV: "Coming back after 4 races we decided to follow the footsteps of my teammate who is doing exceedingly well, but it has been a mistake because his style is different from mine. So we have gone back to our ways and things may improve now." Translation: we are setting up our bike with more load to the front, in order to have a better front-end feel.

Sure, these settings give a better feel, but apparently with these Bridgestones they are less "comfortable", more critical and crash-prone. These tires seem to work best with Lorenzo's style, who can ride a bike with less front-end load faster and without crashing, whereas those who prefer a loaded front end (Stoner and Rossi) are now slower; they have tried unloading the rear to find more feeling at the front -- but then they risk losing the rear, which can produce silly-looking lowsides but also dramatic highsides as happened to Rossi at Mugello. It is the story of the short blanket -- you pull it up, and your feet pop out...

So I hope I'm wrong, but since Bridgestone have already manufactured all tires for 2010 and no evolution is contemplated before the end of the season, Rossi and Stoner may not win again this year... or they will have to risk a lot to win.

In the past Rossi was able to always adapt his style to whatever was thrown at him, but this time it doesn't seem so. Habits become stronger with age, after all!

And it is not such a big surprise that Pedrosa, having sorted out the technical problems of his Honda, may now be even faster than Lorenzo on these tires. Because of his low weight, he has never been among the strongest in braking and in corner entry -- but he has become adept at picking the bike up and exiting the corners faster than others. His style may now pay off handsomely

frosty58 · Sep 16, 2010

uh oh..... here come the new tire war...

povol · Sep 16, 2010

And here i thought it was his shoulder.

J4rn0 · Sep 17, 2010

povol said:
And here i thought it was his shoulder.

There you go... One tries to start a technical thread and immediately some try to transform it in the usual boring row --

Tom · Sep 17, 2010

J4rn0 said:
In the past Rossi was able to always adapt his style to whatever was thrown at him, but this time it doesn't seem so. Habits become stronger with age, after all!

You mean in the past Bridgestone always happened to produce tyres that Rossi loved more than anyone else

This is all a pretty long winded way of saying Lorenzo has ridden better than his compeitors this year.

cliche guevara · Sep 17, 2010

Tom said:
You mean in the past Bridgestone always happened to produce tyres that Rossi loved more than anyone else

This is all a pretty long winded way of saying Lorenzo has ridden better than his compeitors this year.

word

although i agree that this is an quite interesting theory because it is a possible(!) explanation why stoner loses the front so often.

michaelm · Sep 17, 2010

Tom said:
You mean in the past Bridgestone always happened to produce tyres that Rossi loved more than anyone else

This is all a pretty long winded way of saying Lorenzo has ridden better than his compeitors this year.

I agree that the current tyres don't suit rossi and stoner, but also agree that this is hardly the fault or any concern of lorenzo's.

The law of unintended consequences again appears to have operated, as the current control tyre situation can be fairly directly attributed to rossi's dissatisfaction with michelin in 2007.

Tom · Sep 17, 2010

cliché guevara said:
word

although i agree that this is an quite interesting theory because it is a possible(!) explanation why stoner loses the front so often.

I think the bike is more likely at fault, ALL the Ducati riders are falling off the front this year

michaelm said:
I agree that the current tyres don't suit rossi and stoner, but also agree that this is hardly the fault or any concern of lorenzo's.

Exactly, the only reason the tyres stopped suiting Stoner and Rossi is because they've had to push them harder to keep up with Jorge's pace and they can't do it. Bridgestone will listen mostly to the feedback from the best rider in the field and that wont help the others much. Just like when Stoner was champ, Just like when Rossi was champ.

cliche guevara · Sep 17, 2010

Tom said:
I think the bike is more likely at fault, ALL the Ducati riders are falling off the front this year

Exactly, the only reason the tyres stopped suiting Stoner and Rossi is because they've had to push them harder to keep up with Jorge's pace and they can't do it. Bridgestone will listen mostly to the feedback from the best rider in the field and that wont help the others much. Just like when Stoner was champ, Just like when Rossi was champ.

I don't disagree but i remember stoner losing the front more often compared to the other guys.or maybe thats just what i remember :-D

but i agree that the ducati is stoners problem,not the tyres

maybe a little off topic : do you think that the development of this years ducati has already steered into rossis favor?i always thought stoners greatest talent was to tame a wild,out of control but insanely powerful bike.

with the change to big bang firing order i imagine they easily lost 10hp in pursuit of better rideability.rossis change to yamaha when they revised the firing order is the example that comes to mind.

so basically the gist of what i'm trying to say is, isn't it possible that stoner is struggling with the ducati because someone in bologna had valentino in mind designing the bike,not casey?

Tom · Sep 17, 2010

cliché guevara said:
I don't disagree but i remember stoner losing the front more often compared to the other guys.or maybe thats just what i remember :-D

but i agree that the ducati is stoners problem,not the tyres

maybe a little off topic : do you think that the development of this years ducati has already steered into rossis favor?i always thought stoners greatest talent was to tame a wild,out of control but insanely powerful bike.

with the change to big bang firing order i imagine they easily lost 10hp in pursuit of better rideability.rossis change to yamaha when they revised the firing order is the example that comes to mind.

so basically the gist of what i'm trying to say is, isn't it possible that stoner is struggling with the ducati because someone in bologna had valentino in mind designing the bike,not casey?

I don't think they designed it necessarily with Rossi in mind, but there is no doubt in my mind that the motivation for the concept change in this years bike was to make the bike rideable for people other than Stoner, knowing that the relationship wouldn't last forever. I don't understand if the change in engine spec is connected to the front end troubles or if its just coincidence, but either way i think Ducati have done the right thing with the bike in the long run

J4rn0 · Sep 17, 2010

Tom said:
You mean in the past Bridgestone always happened to produce tyres that Rossi loved more than anyone else

This is all a pretty long winded way of saying Lorenzo has ridden better than his compeitors this year.

He's not been riding better than Pedrosa lately. These tires could suit Pedrobot better than Lorenzobot, after all...

Tires do matter a lot to the way one rides, and this can't apply just to Rossi!

J4rn0 · Sep 17, 2010

Tom said:
I think the bike is more likely at fault, ALL the Ducati riders are falling off the front this year

Exactly, the only reason the tyres stopped suiting Stoner and Rossi is because they've had to push them harder to keep up with Jorge's pace and they can't do it. Bridgestone will listen mostly to the feedback from the best rider in the field and that wont help the others much. Just like when Stoner was champ, Just like when Rossi was champ.

It's not only that. They had also a choice of harder body available in 2008 and 2009, that isn't available in 2010. That, I think, is the key.

J4rn0 · Sep 17, 2010

cliché guevara said:
I don't disagree but i remember stoner losing the front more often compared to the other guys.or maybe thats just what i remember :-D

but i agree that the ducati is stoners problem,not the tyres

maybe a little off topic : do you think that the development of this years ducati has already steered into rossis favor?i always thought stoners greatest talent was to tame a wild,out of control but insanely powerful bike.

with the change to big bang firing order i imagine they easily lost 10hp in pursuit of better rideability.rossis change to yamaha when they revised the firing order is the example that comes to mind.

so basically the gist of what i'm trying to say is, isn't it possible that stoner is struggling with the ducati because someone in bologna had valentino in mind designing the bike,not casey?

Casey approved the big bang engine -- he could have stuck to the screamer, had he wanted to. It was also him asking for a more tractable engine, remember?

Whatever Ducati's problems may be, I think they are compounded by the 2010 very limited tire choice.

I wouldn't be too suprised if Rossi actually decided to revert to the screamer in 2011... or maybe in 2012, with 1000cc. The screamer is not only more powerful but more fuel efficient than the big bang. And after all, Rossi could tame the 500s without electronics.

Tom · Sep 17, 2010

J4rn0 said:
And after all, Rossi could tame the 500s without electronics.

You mean the much less powerful, less physically demanding bikes with early traction control, a big bang firing order and a less competitive field to ride against. 10 years ago. That is an excellent indicator of Rossi's chances next year

L8Braker · Sep 17, 2010

shoulder problems, broken legs, limited tire choices, 800's, electronics, faulty knee pucks, floppy visors, parade style racing, man on the grassy knowl, what else can we add? motogp racing has been boring and has not seen a knock down dragout style fight since 06.

sory J4rn0, very insightful post on your part.

Tom · Sep 17, 2010

J4rn0 said:
Tires do matter a lot to the way one rides, and this can't apply just to Rossi!

Of course, tyres are the single most important component of a racing motorcycle.

J4rn0 said:
It's not only that. They had also a choice of harder body available in 2008 and 2009, that isn't available in 2010. That, I think, is the key.

The key is that someone else can ride the tyres available better. Whether you put that down to conspiracy theories and politics, or logic is up to you but makes little difference. The bottom line is that the control tyre actually presents as many problems as a tyre war.

cliche guevara · Sep 17, 2010

J4rn0 said:
Casey approved the big bang engine -- he could have stuck to the screamer, had he wanted to. It was also him asking for a more tractable engine, remember?

Whatever Ducati's problems may be, I think they are compounded by the 2010 very limited tire choice.

I wouldn't be too suprised if Rossi actually decided to revert to the screamer in 2011... or maybe in 2012, with 1000cc. The screamer is not only more powerful but more fuel efficient than the big bang. And after all, Rossi could tame the 500s without electronics.

really?can't remember that stoner was in favour of the big bang and it's just hard for me to believe that this was his wish.do any of you guys have an interview or something where stoner debates the engine configurations?I'd love to see that

why do you think rossi will prefer a screamer firing order?i think a style that is as smooth and dependent on corner speed as rossis would benefit from better traction on corner exit .

and even though i'm a rossi fan (and have been since i started watchig mid-late 90s....) i do not hold his 500cc title in highest regard.

I'm not discrediting rossi here ,but he did have the best bike and the second best rider was stuck on an inferior machine which made the championship a cakewalk for him.

and most certainly does that title not tell anything about the ability to ride a 1000cc four stroke,loaded with driver aids

Jumkie · Sep 17, 2010

J4rn0 said:
There you go... One tries to start a technical thread and immediately some try to transform it in the usual boring row --

What was "technical" about it? Sounded like a lot of projection and speculation.

J4rn0 said:
He's not been riding better than Pedrosa lately. These tires could suit Pedrobot better than Lorenzobot, after all...

Tires do matter a lot to the way one rides, and this can't apply just to Rossi!

Championship management. What don't you understand about this concept? Yes, tires do matter alot. I've said this before...remember?

Jumkie · Sep 17, 2010

cliché guevara said:
I don't disagree but i remember stoner losing the front more often compared to the other guys.or maybe thats just what i remember :-D

but i agree that the ducati is stoners problem,not the tyres

maybe a little off topic : do you think that the development of this years ducati has already steered into rossis favor?

Both Stoner and Nicky have lost front. I'd say its a combination of .... front suspension, as you will recall, they tried to solve this by using a bandaid of winglets, combined with perhaps tire issues. J4rno wants to believe the tires are the "problem" to explain Lorenzo's superior pace.

Jumkie · Sep 17, 2010

michaelm said:
I agree that the current tyres don't suit rossi and stoner, but also agree that this is hardly the fault or any concern of lorenzo's.

Why? What evidence do you offer for "agreeing"? Results? Is it possible Lorenzo simply knows how to properly push this particular type of rubber as oppose to some unseen advantage? (Which is what J4rno is implying. )How about set up, perhaps Lorenzo has found the ideal set up for the tire in question? (Which is not a issue of better vs problematic tire, but rather than proper set up solutions). Why must the tire "suit" Lorenzo in your estimation? If so, what does this say about tire's "suiting" riders and the results they achieve with them?

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