Bradl to get Factory support in 2014?

bluegreen · Nov 19, 2012

Here's how it worked for those not paying attention.

Hayden getting new bits = Rossi's test monkey

Rossi getting new bits = Rossi getting the latest parts showing favoritism over Hayden

Truth is, valuable years have been taken from both men on that bike. I'd love to see Nicky on a Honda again, I think it would open a lot of eyes. 20 riders on factory spec RC213V's would blow a lot of minds.

Andy Roo · Nov 19, 2012

woody996 said:
I seem to remember VR testing things before NH was able to use them. This doesn't suggest that NH was VR's tester.

I also remember quite a few races in 2010 where Stoner just rode around electing not to throw it down the road and coming nowhere close to winning. I guess this was his legacy too given it was part of his legacy on the bike.

The mechanics working on VR's Ducati believe they improved it. Please go and tell them that they didn't.

Why would anyone have to tell them? They have time sheets and championship tables.

I think comparing Casey's season in 2010 to Rossi's is a tad stretchy. Casey may have won a race or two, and he got naffed pretty seriously by the Duc team looking for Lorenzo and then Rossi. He had every right to have a little bit of sand in his wee wee.

thedeal · Nov 19, 2012

Goatboy said:
Who from? People that didn't respect him in the first place.

No i for instance had masses of respect for him before this and so did many people i speak to,he was unbeatable on the best bikes for many years and i bought into the doctor and thought he would be awsome on the ducati but it didnt happen,you keep painting me as a rossi hater but im not my eyes have just been opened to the fact he was just the best of an era and not the goat,your blind defence of him is as extreme as the rossi haters you so despise but next year will tell where your goat is and im looking forward to hearing your excuses.

Goatboy · Nov 20, 2012

thedeal said:
No i for instance had masses of respect for him before this and so did many people i speak to,he was unbeatable on the best bikes for many years and i bought into the doctor and thought he would be awsome on the ducati but it didnt happen,you keep painting me as a rossi hater but im not my eyes have just been opened to the fact he was just the best of an era and not the goat,your blind defence of him is as extreme as the rossi haters you so despise but next year will tell where your goat is and im looking forward to hearing your excuses.

Oh I see, so you didn't just lose respect for him after Valencia, so who did?

Admitting you we're are a fair weather fan, genius, that really gives me a lot of respect for you knowing that as soon as he wasn't winning you "had your eyes opened." You keep referring to my blind deference, but I've backed up my opinions, you are just full of ..... It strikes me you are the one who expected him to magically win on a Ducati, with taking anything remotely realistic into consideration. It also seems it was the end of the world for you in terms of Rossi when he didn't. I really respect you right now.

Here's a joke for you:

[background=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0)]A teacher asks his pupils, "Can anyone tell me the difference between constructive criticism and unnecessary nastiness?"[/background]

[background=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0)]Little Johnny puts his hand up.

"One is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments."

"Very good, Johnny," says the teacher. "And the other?"

"Your mum's a ....."[/background]

michaelm · Nov 20, 2012

Andy Roo said:
Why would anyone have to tell them? They have time sheets and championship tables.

I think comparing Casey's season in 2010 to Rossi's is a tad stretchy. Casey may have won a race or two, and he got naffed pretty seriously by the Duc team looking for Lorenzo and then Rossi. He had every right to have a little bit of sand in his wee wee.

2010 is when the bike went terminally bad though imo. Going big bang and/or whatever else they did to make it more "generally rideable" made it generally unstable, including for stoner. I think it is revisionism even on his part to suggest he left a bike that was competitive for the championship.My theory at the time was that he decided at the end of 2010 to go win it or bin it partly because dani was going well late season and his status at hrc for 2011 was a little uncertain. Still took balls to do of course.

The 2009 carbon fibre thing was a different matter (again imo) for him at least; as he said at the time, the bike was good enough when he was healthy enough.

thedeal · Nov 20, 2012

Goatboy said:
Oh I see, so you didn't just lose respect for him after Valencia, so who did?

Admitting you we're are a fair weather fan, genius, that really gives me a lot of respect for you knowing that as soon as he wasn't winning you "had your eyes opened." You keep referring to my blind deference, but I've backed up my opinions, you are just full of ..... It strikes me you are the one who expected him to magically win on a Ducati, with taking anything remotely realistic into consideration. It also seems it was the end of the world for you in terms of Rossi when he didn't. I really respect you right now.

Here's a joke for you:

[background=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0)]A teacher asks his pupils, "Can anyone tell me the difference between constructive criticism and unnecessary nastiness?"[/background]

[background=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0)]Little Johnny puts his hand up.

"One is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments."

"Very good, Johnny," says the teacher. "And the other?"

"Your mum's a ....."[/background]

Fair weather fan, ive been a race fan since 1975 and watched them all come and go,you personally attack again,you are just a joke and i cant be bothered with your childish crap anymore.

BJ.C · Nov 20, 2012

michaelm said:
2010 is when the bike went terminally bad though imo. Going big bang and/or whatever else they did to make it more "generally rideable" made it generally unstable, including for stoner. I think it is revisionism even on his part to suggest he left a bike that was competitive for the championship.My theory at the time was that he decided at the end of 2010 to go win it or bin it partly because dani was going well late season and his status at hrc for 2011 was a little uncertain. Still took balls to do of course.

The 2009 carbon fibre thing was a different matter (again imo) for him at least; as he said at the time, the bike was good enough when he was healthy enough.

IIRC Stoner's main criticism of the Ducati was its propensity for losing the front end in other than a predictable way. This came about with the change of Bridgestones from being purpose-made for the Ducati to being a one-size-fits-all tyre. This showed in the number of crashes that started to mount up. Not, as Mdub would have us believe, because Stoner was devolving the Ducati, but because of the meddling of Dorna to level the field so that Rossi and Pedrosa could compete.

Or was Rossi on the Yamaha on Michelins another example of devolution? Suddenly the M1 was handling badly and crashes mounted up - it must be Rossi's inability to 'engineer' his ride, just like Stoner steadily made the D16 worse.

I think that was the turning point for the Ducati - when Bridgestone became the sole supplier.

As to leaving a bike that was competitive - Rossi had been telling him that he wasn't a trier, that he didn't work hard enough and that his talent and that of his team was lacking. Even so, he managed 9 podiums, 3 wins - of course it was a bike that was able to compete for a championship - with the right rider. As Rossi was so much better, it is only natural to think the bike would be even more competitive, wouldn't it?

Goatboy · Nov 20, 2012

thedeal said:
Fair weather fan, ive been a race fan since 1975 and watched them all come and go,you personally attack again,you are just a joke and i cant be bothered with your childish crap anymore.

I'm sorry for personally attacking you, I just don't suffer fools gladly.

I think you need to focus on the criticism aspect of that joke, or is it above your head?

bluegreen · Nov 20, 2012

I think the other great revision that took place in 2011 was in regards to the GP07. That bike at one point had a reputation for basically riding itself around the track, and there is no way that is the case (even the M1 with it's rider friendly reputation threatened to end a young JL's career). However in 2011 the the GP07 turned into the GP10 in people's minds, which is also clearly not the case. It had a well sorted trellis frame and bridgestones to suit. It was good enough for Caparossi to win on. Again was it the best bike on the grid? Possibly not, but I think recent history shows us how much the package matters. In order to win a WC you need one of the better bikes. Period.

Another way of looking at it. Stoner was a young rider in '07 and if he is a normal human being I would expect his skills/racecraft to improve with time. But instead the opposite happens, his results slowly slide backwards during the rest of his time at Ducati. That's the bike getting worse, and the tires no longer suiting the bike. By the time 2010 rolls around he's simply riding for a ticket out of Bolangna. I can't blame him, and clearly he's the only one who could win on the CF frame. It's a black hole for everyone else. But that doesn't turn the GP07 into a pos either.

Goatboy · Nov 20, 2012

bluegreen said:
In order to win a WC you need one of the better bikes.

Never a truer word spoken.

thedeal · Nov 20, 2012

Goatboy said:
I'm sorry for personally attacking you, I just don't suffer fools gladly.

I think you need to focus on the criticism aspect of that joke, or is it above your head?

No nothing you say is over my head in fact most of the way you defend your hero is beneath me so i wont be bothering any more.

stiefel · Nov 20, 2012

woody996 said:
I seem to remember VR testing things before NH was able to use them. This doesn't suggest that NH was VR's tester.

I also remember quite a few races in 2010 where Stoner just rode around electing not to throw it down the road and coming nowhere close to winning. I guess this was his legacy too given it was part of his legacy on the bike.

The mechanics working on VR's Ducati believe they improved it. Please go and tell them that they didn't.

He don't need to, VR already did: "From the last two seasons with Ducati, I'm disappointed in the results and the fact that I couldn't improve the bike." http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201211168908/Rossi-if-I-win-maybe-I-ll-retire.html

sewarion · Nov 20, 2012

My most optimistic expectations would see me winning the world championship, while my most pessimistic would see me finishing behind Lorenzo in every single race.

Nice one. 'I think I can win the championship, but as long as I finish in front of Lorenzo every once in a while it will do, too.'

Goatboy · Nov 20, 2012

thedeal said:
No nothing you say is over my head in fact most of the way you defend your hero is beneath me so i wont be bothering any more.

You really don't get the consequences of your own words/actions do you. You really don't see that your opinions, which are entirely un subjective in language & tone mark you out.

EDIT: Let's try again adding emphasis:

A teacher asks his pupils, "Can anyone tell me the difference between constructive criticism and unnecessary nastiness?"

Little Johnny puts his hand up.

"One is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments."

"Very good, Johnny," says the teacher. "And the other?"

"Your mum's a ....."

Now you really think your hysteric ramblings re: Rossi constitute constructive criticism that warrant proper response?

Arrabbiata1 · Nov 20, 2012

It should have read.......

Goatboy said:
[background=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0)]A teacher asks his pupils, "Can anyone tell me the difference between constructive criticism and unnecessary nastiness?"[/background]

[background=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0)]Johnny Knockdown puts his hand up.

"One is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments."

"Very good, Johnny," says the teacher. "And the other?"

"Your mum's a ....."[/background]

BJ.C · Nov 20, 2012

More revisionist history:

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0)]A teacher asks his pupils, "Can anyone tell me the difference between constructive criticism and unnecessary nastiness?"[/background][/font]

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0)]BJC puts his hand up.

"Yes Bryan"[/background][/font]

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0)]"You're a ...., I hate this place, the all Blacks suck"[/background][/font]

It was always a mystery to me which of those ended up getting me expelled... ah well, I didn't turn out so bad after all

michaelm · Nov 20, 2012

bluegreen said:
I think the other great revision that took place in 2011 was in regards to the GP07. That bike at one point had a reputation for basically riding itself around the track, and there is no way that is the case (even the M1 with it's rider friendly reputation threatened to end a young JL's career). However in 2011 the the GP07 turned into the GP10 in people's minds, which is also clearly not the case. It had a well sorted trellis frame and bridgestones to suit. It was good enough for Caparossi to win on. Again was it the best bike on the grid? Possibly not, but I think recent history shows us how much the package matters. In order to win a WC you need one of the better bikes. Period.

Another way of looking at it. Stoner was a young rider in '07 and if he is a normal human being I would expect his skills/racecraft to improve with time. But instead the opposite happens, his results slowly slide backwards during the rest of his time at Ducati. That's the bike getting worse, and the tires no longer suiting the bike. By the time 2010 rolls around he's simply riding for a ticket out of Bolangna. I can't blame him, and clearly he's the only one who could win on the CF frame. It's a black hole for everyone else. But that doesn't turn the GP07 into a pos either.

The 2007 bike still wasn't a well balanced device of general utility, imo and others. It was comparatively better than in later years particularly on the high tech multi-compound bridgestone tyre with which it was co-developed and had a power advantage, but never handled well. It required a unique riding style to get it through the corners with sufficient rapidity to utilise the straight line advantage, and if you were stoner and could ride it that way it was invincible. What gave it the straight line edge may also have contributed to it being difficult for others though, and rossi was never happy with the engine characteristics of even the big bang 800 engine. Capirossi himself said he tried and couldn't replicate stoner's riding style, and marco melandri knew he was in trouble as soon as he got on the thing in the post-season test.

Capirossi's win was at Japan in a wet/dry race where stoner only needed to beat rossi to clinch the title, and he had a couple of podiums on tracks which suited the bike and the bridgestones, or didn't suit the michelins, but still finished down the field overall. I don't think the 990 bikes handled all that well either, but also had good engines.

barbedwirebiker · Nov 20, 2012

Haha classic!

Mine was punching the principal. The stupid, looking, bow-tie wearing, Vodka smelling fucketer deserved it.

BJ.C · Nov 20, 2012

I put a teacher into psychiatric care... I'm not proud of that, even though he was a .....

bluegreen · Nov 21, 2012

michaelm said:
The 2007 bike still wasn't a well balanced device of general utility, imo and others. It was comparatively better than in later years particularly on the high tech multi-compound bridgestone tyre with which it was co-developed and had a power advantage, but never handled well. It required a unique riding style to get it through the corners with sufficient rapidity to utilise the straight line advantage, and if you were stoner and could ride it that way it was invincible. What gave it the straight line edge may also have contributed to it being difficult for others though, and rossi was never happy with the engine characteristics of even the big bang 800 engine. Capirossi himself said he tried and couldn't replicate stoner's riding style, and marco melandri knew he was in trouble as soon as he got on the thing in the post-season test.

Capirossi's win was at Japan in a wet/dry race where stoner only needed to beat rossi to clinch the title, and he had a couple of podiums on tracks which suited the bike and the bridgestones, or didn't suit the michelins, but still finished down the field overall. I don't think the 990 bikes handled all that well either, but also had good engines.

All fair points. And I do remember reading in the '07 Season Review about Casey having to muscle the bike around corners so I wasn't thinking it was a peach to ride. My point being that it must have been a whole lot better than the GP10 unlike current revisionist thought.

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Bradl to get Factory support in 2014?

bluegreen

Andy Roo

thedeal

Goatboy

michaelm

thedeal

BJ.C

Goatboy

bluegreen

Goatboy

thedeal

stiefel

sewarion

Goatboy

Arrabbiata1

BJ.C

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barbedwirebiker

BJ.C

bluegreen

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