AustralianGP 2017

JPSLotus said:

When KTM leapfrogs Ducati, and believe me, they will, people better start asking why Italy continues living in the past like everything else they do. It's like after the Renaissance they decided, ".... it, we did the Sistine Chapel ceiling, we did the Mona Lisa, we did sculptures, we did it all, we're done, we'll just live on our cred for being artisans forever and people will eat that .... up."

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"...Italy continues living in the past...live on our cred..."
Does this apply to Aprilia, too?

birdman said:

This last 1 1/2 seasons we have witnessed something really special from Dovi. He has single handedly taken a bike that is in no position to challenge the might of Honda and Yamaha and he has come oh so close to stealing a championship. This has been a hurculean effort it would have been a legendary tale, and yet I'm glad I was privelliged just to see him get this close.

Of course Marquez is an amazing rider. But really, would anyone in their right mind choose to ride a Ducati rather than a Honda or Yamaha? No way, sure they have their issues but the same 2 have dominated every championship since 2007. Ducati will never change that, hopefully KTM might but they are yet to know what it's like to get screwed by Carmelo.

Put Marquez on this current Ducati and my bet he does no better than Dovi, all credit to the man. This race I believe Michelin had tires that simply didn't fit the Ducati operating window. By coincidence, it did fit the Yamaha perfectly, and I have to say Rossi looked very strong and confident on the bike he rode a great race.

But back to Dovi his fellow Duc team mates are looking over his data and are scratching their heads trying to figure out how the hell is this guy actually contending for the title, how does he ride like that? It's up there in Stoner territory. Remember Dovi and Lorenzo have been rivals all the way back to 125s and Lorenzo has generally had the upper hand but not anymore, he will never be able to replicate what Dovi has done.

Now think back to when Dovi was on the Tech 3 and pushing for a factory Yamaha. How would that have turned out? W/C imo

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Spot on. As usual.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Congratulations to Marc!!! It was a fantastic weekend and the fickle '4 season is 35 minutes - PI weather' stayed dry for the races after all the ...... rain we copped in the morning. I only just flew home tonight. I was a radio track marshal at T8 for the weekend for the first time and had an absolute ball. It was also great to see the bikes do a proper victory lap in continuation from the new standard Crutchlow set last year

The Sunday morning briefing warned that Crutchlow may try to re-offend. Being at T8 I knew i wouldnt get to the podium in time and so i wasn't really expecting to see much more after the last lap. As i got on with the job and took the recovery gear to the edge of the track for collection all of the sudden I heard the call to race control over the headset that 7 or so bikes had somehow gone past the turn 4 after the chequered flag and it really brought a big smile to my face.

The track hadn't had clearance quite yet and all the public had started to make their way to the podium. I got a pleasant surprise as all the lead group of riders emerged through the crowd and cruised past me in a pretty empty Lukey Heights so i could give them a big cheer and a clap up close and almost face to face like... i even got some some acknowledgement from all the riders and even fist pumps from Marc which was pretty awesome.

I was really impressed with the respect the riders gave to all the volunteer marshals/proper fans at the event that weekend, it was really great to see.

I also helped recover the Ducati 2-up bike that Randy Mamola binned at turn 8, luckily he was on his warmup lap and didn't have a pillion onboard as its a 200kph corner he came off on. He walked away uninjured but boy was he pissed off. He was very loud and very vocal with himself calling himself just about every name under the sun. It was pretty funny hearing him go off and the medical crew just stood back out of fist throwing distance until he cooled off.

Talking later the medical girls told me that on the Saturday he had a young lady riding pillion with him and that she literally shat herself while he was taking her around the track at pace... she was so scared and in fight or flight mode that she literally .... in her pants (I thought that was just an expression) and she had to purchase the leathers that they supplied her.

Dr No said:

"...Italy continues living in the past...live on our cred..."
Does this apply to Aprilia, too?

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Don't think so but they do need a proper rider or 2

AJV80 said:

Congratulations to Marc!!! It was a fantastic weekend and the fickle '4 season is 35 minutes - PI weather' stayed dry for the races after all the ...... rain we copped in the morning. I only just flew home tonight. I was a radio track marshal at T8 for the weekend for the first time and had an absolute ball. It was also great to see the bikes do a proper victory lap in continuation from the new standard Crutchlow set last year

The Sunday morning briefing warned that Crutchlow may try to re-offend. Being at T8 I knew i wouldnt get to the podium in time and so i wasn't really expecting to see much more after the last lap. As i got on with the job and took the recovery gear to the edge of the track for collection all of the sudden I heard the call to race control over the headset that 7 or so bikes had somehow gone past the turn 4 after the chequered flag and it really brought a big smile to my face.

The track hadn't had clearance quite yet and all the public had started to make their way to the podium. I got a pleasant surprise as all the lead group of riders emerged through the crowd and cruised past me in a pretty empty Lukey Heights so i could give them a big cheer and a clap up close and almost face to face like... i even got some some acknowledgement from all the riders and even fist pumps from Marc which was pretty awesome.

I was really impressed with the respect the riders gave to all the volunteer marshals/proper fans at the event that weekend, it was really great to see.

I also helped recover the Ducati 2-up bike that Randy Mamola binned at turn 8, luckily he was on his warmup lap and didn't have a pillion onboard as its a 200kph corner he came off on. He walked away uninjured but boy was he pissed off. He was very loud and very vocal with himself calling himself just about every name under the sun. It was pretty funny hearing him go off and the medical crew just stood back out of fist throwing distance until he cooled off.

Talking later the medical girls told me that on the Saturday he had a young lady riding pillion with him and that she literally shat herself while he was taking her around the track at pace... she was so scared and in fight or flight mode that she literally .... in her pants (I thought that was just an expression) and she had to purchase the leathers that they supplied her.

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Sorry to hear you had a bad weekend. I can understand.
It sounds like you had a real ...... vantage point to see Brolly girls

AJV80 said:

I was a radio track marshal at T8 for the weekend....

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Great report!

AJV80 said:

Congratulations to Marc!!! It was a fantastic weekend and the fickle '4 season is 35 minutes - PI weather' stayed dry for the races after all the ...... rain we copped in the morning. I only just flew home tonight. I was a radio track marshal at T8 for the weekend for the first time and had an absolute ball. It was also great to see the bikes do a proper victory lap in continuation from the new standard Crutchlow set last year

The Sunday morning briefing warned that Crutchlow may try to re-offend. Being at T8 I knew i wouldnt get to the podium in time and so i wasn't really expecting to see much more after the last lap. As i got on with the job and took the recovery gear to the edge of the track for collection all of the sudden I heard the call to race control over the headset that 7 or so bikes had somehow gone past the turn 4 after the chequered flag and it really brought a big smile to my face.

The track hadn't had clearance quite yet and all the public had started to make their way to the podium. I got a pleasant surprise as all the lead group of riders emerged through the crowd and cruised past me in a pretty empty Lukey Heights so i could give them a big cheer and a clap up close and almost face to face like... i even got some some acknowledgement from all the riders and even fist pumps from Marc which was pretty awesome.

I was really impressed with the respect the riders gave to all the volunteer marshals/proper fans at the event that weekend, it was really great to see.

I also helped recover the Ducati 2-up bike that Randy Mamola binned at turn 8, luckily he was on his warmup lap and didn't have a pillion onboard as its a 200kph corner he came off on. He walked away uninjured but boy was he pissed off. He was very loud and very vocal with himself calling himself just about every name under the sun. It was pretty funny hearing him go off and the medical crew just stood back out of fist throwing distance until he cooled off.

Talking later the medical girls told me that on the Saturday he had a young lady riding pillion with him and that she literally shat herself while he was taking her around the track at pace... she was so scared and in fight or flight mode that she literally .... in her pants (I thought that was just an expression) and she had to purchase the leathers that they supplied her.

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Same happened when a journalist went pillion with Michael Dunlop a couple of years ago.

Sounds like you had a great time though!

Cool story AJV80.

Speaking of, where's Motul Shaunna?

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

birdman said:

This last 1 1/2 seasons we have witnessed something really special from Dovi. He has single handedly taken a bike that is in no position to challenge the might of Honda and Yamaha and he has come oh so close to stealing a championship. This has been a hurculean effort it would have been a legendary tale, and yet I'm glad I was privelliged just to see him get this close.

Of course Marquez is an amazing rider. But really, would anyone in their right mind choose to ride a Ducati rather than a Honda or Yamaha? No way, sure they have their issues but the same 2 have dominated every championship since 2007. Ducati will never change that, hopefully KTM might but they are yet to know what it's like to get screwed by Carmelo.

Put Marquez on this current Ducati and my bet he does no better than Dovi, all credit to the man. This race I believe Michelin had tires that simply didn't fit the Ducati operating window. By coincidence, it did fit the Yamaha perfectly, and I have to say Rossi looked very strong and confident on the bike he rode a great race.

But back to Dovi his fellow Duc team mates are looking over his data and are scratching their heads trying to figure out how the hell is this guy actually contending for the title, how does he ride like that? It's up there in Stoner territory. Remember Dovi and Lorenzo have been rivals all the way back to 125s and Lorenzo has generally had the upper hand but not anymore, he will never be able to replicate what Dovi has done.

Now think back to when Dovi was on the Tech 3 and pushing for a factory Yamaha. How would that have turned out? W/C imo

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OK, you are joking right,Stoner Territory. The last half of last season was nothing special at all for Dovi except for him breaking his years long non winning streak at a wet Sepang. They then opened this season terribly and were going nowhere fast until the tire swap. With Honda, Yamaha struggling and Ducati having a slight edge in electronics and huge advantage in power, they found a window where everything came together, new tires starting at Mugello, tracks that rewarded hp, wet races on tracks that normally didnt favor them. Throw in a steady ole pro who has been on the bike forever and he almost stole a title. The window really lasted about 3 months.

povol said:

OK, you are joking right,Stoner Territory. The last half of last season was nothing special at all for Dovi except for him breaking his years long non winning streak at a wet Sepang. They then opened this season terribly and were going nowhere fast until the tire swap. With Honda, Yamaha struggling and Ducati having a slight edge in electronics and huge advantage in power, they found a window where everything came together, new tires starting at Mugello, tracks that rewarded hp, wet races on tracks that normally didnt favor them. Throw in a steady ole pro who has been on the bike forever and he almost stole a title. The window really lasted about 3 months.

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Pov, you're taking issue with the comparison that Dovi has done something with the Ducati that nobody has been able to do since 2007? There certainly are similarities without having to conflate that Dovi is Stoner, which is NOT what Birdy said.

"But back to Dovi his fellow Duc team mates are looking over his data and are scratching their heads trying to figure out how the hell is this guy actually contending for the title, how does he ride like that? It's up there in Stoner territory."

You highlighted this bit, so lets examine the statement. I didn't read this to mean that Dovi is equal to Stoner, but rather he is taking a machine that shouldn't be contending, one that is inferior to the two Japanese manufactures that have dominated the last 40 years plus, and is putting in an unlikely challenge to the title; something that Dovi's very talented teammate Lorenzo has not come close to doing. For perspective, look at Vinalez, hopped on the M1 and won straight away, contended for a while too. So the 'comparison' is fair, being exact when 'comparing' things is not required, and in fact is not a comparison at all. First of all, it IS a fact, Dovi on a Ducati is a title 'contender', so let's get that out of the way.

Despite this weekend's performance, which should be obvious was, as you allude above, the result of a 'tire characteristic' (which in this case was detrimental to Dovi, following your own logic that the tire was favorable in other occasions) Dovi has been sharp even spanning last year, when the tire manipulations of this year were just a Carmelo pipe dream. So no, it is not all about this year's tire coup to prop up Rossi, which had the unintended consequence of providing 'both' Dovi and Marquez a reprieve from the previous bike-package challenges; challenges that had much to do with the tires and not this supposed .... RCV that is a myth (relativity). Dovi wasn't the only one who benefited from having Rossi's front, so did Marquez, and i said this before somewhere on this forum; before Vudu chimes in, this doesn't mean the tire was designed for these two, clearly it was designed around Rossi, however Dovi and Marc were able to render some usefulness to their particular style (contrast this with Lorenzo, Vinalez, Pedrosa, etc.).

The Ducati has no business contending for the title! Therefore, this is extraordinary territory, like the last time Ducati were in the position to win a title, that is a fair comparison. This to me is the obvious message of Birdy's take. We all know the Ducati isn't championship worthy, its why it some doubted wasn't a contender, which ironically turned out to contend up until this very weekend. Again, this fact makes Dovi 'contending' all the more extraordinary. Marc came within a nat's pubic hair in giving up the points lead at Motegi and other races with two great saves, both a result of his reflex and luck, saves that other times for him have resulted in crashes (any serious racer will tell you, saving a crashes is a bit of both). That Dovi's race in Australia was a disaster has little to do with him and more do do with the characteristics of a fickle capricious motorcycle that has a very narrow sweet spot. There are many similarities to Stoner's Ducati championship and Dovi's contending run, you seem to take issue that they must be 'exact' to be compared. I think we need to step back a bit from the Stoner worship (I raise my hand as well) that any comparison is treading on sacred ground, which it should be mentioned, seems to also been afflicting a few members here regarding Marquez. (I don't think Marc would be in this position today on a Ducati, considering he was just 11 points ahead after Motegi whilst riding the sorted RCV.)

To say Honda was hampered at the start of the season or the last couple of years is as laughable as it was when Kropo wrote that Marquez was riding with one arm tied behind his back. When making these statements one must ask, relative to what? Relative to what was the RCV ....? Yamaha/Ducati? If the bike isn't perfect its hampered relative to...other machines that are not perfect? So which imperfect bike is best? This is the parity rank: Honda/Yamaha Yamaha/Honda....then Ducati, this has been true for 20 damn years! It hasn't changed once. Several times now I've read, not just hear on this forum, that poor old Honda and Yamaha are behind Ducati, nothing is more absurd! An imperfect RCV that Marquez has ridden is still better than the GP17, same goes for the M1. Otherwise Lorenzo's and Vinalez's switch would have been more similar and not the super contrast it is now! Horsepower is nothing without control, I'm surprised to read those few that understood the challenges of the GP07 now use the HP of the current Ducati as some kind of insurmountable advantage for the Japanese. The GP07 had a HP advantage too, it was still .... relative to its Japanese counterpart.

And let me add this, you reason that Ducati have a slight edge on electronics, I'm assuming you are referring to some kind of hang over from the first year that the series moved to a standard championship electronics package. That is a long hang over, a couple of years now, that's way over, so then using this logic, how many years removed does Honda get in the advantage department for developing the first seamless gearbox? Shouldn't the same logic hold that because they were the first to introduce it that the development cycle is still ahead in the curve? Now if you're going to use this logic, the logic that Ducati hold some kind of advantage in electronics because the Japanese switched when the they were required, then how many years of Honda domination will you factor into the development cycle with everything else, like fuel consumption, reliability, engineering resources, etc. ect. I think you will find that the ledger of hang over advantages is heavily in Honda's favor.

The Ducati is a nightmare to ride, its has been and still is, the only rider that has scored multiple wins since Casey Stoner is Dovi! Lorenzo is a far more talented rider that Rossi ever was, and he is struggling finishing 15th at Philip Island. Dovi has scored 5 wins, you don't think Lorenzo is scratching his head wondering how Dovi is doing it? Of course he is! That my friend is a reasonable Stoner territory comparison. You think if Lorenzo could replicate it he would not?

You say above the sweet spot only lasted three months for Dovi? Actually my friend, that's incorrect; over an 18 race events, Dovi scored the most points against the "aliens" on alien bikes, I put up a graphic from BeIN sports that illustrated this fact. Again, on a machine that you concede ( you say yourself the Duc was only good for "a three month window"), shouldn't be up there then; therefore that makes Dovi's performance all the more extraordinary. That is to say, over an 18 race season, Dovi took a machine that shouldn't be a contender and scored the most points over a span of events that arbitrarily awards titles. So, my friend, the comparison is fair without needing to be exact, that is what 'comparisons' are for! It hasn't been a small three month window either as you say, its been over an 18+ race span, actually more when you consider Dovi's Aragon and Motegi results. Dovi's teammate, who beat Marquez--the new Stoner, has won zero races and is certainly scratching his head at how Dovi has legitimately contended with 2 races to go in the season, whilst scoring spectacular wins, even twice against the new Stoner Marquez, in both the dry and the wet.

povol said:

OK, you are joking right,Stoner Territory. The last half of last season was nothing special at all for Dovi except for him breaking his years long non winning streak at a wet Sepang. They then opened this season terribly and were going nowhere fast until the tire swap. With Honda, Yamaha struggling and Ducati having a slight edge in electronics and huge advantage in power, they found a window where everything came together, new tires starting at Mugello, tracks that rewarded hp, wet races on tracks that normally didnt favor them. Throw in a steady ole pro who has been on the bike forever and he almost stole a title. The window really lasted about 3 months.

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Longer than Rossi's window

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Longer than Rossi's window

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Don't underestimate the size of Rossi's window, Uccio managed to crawl into it.

Can someone tell me what HRC would be doing out there if they didn't have Marquez? They have a deadbeat on their other factory seat. They have a .... on their factory satellite. Their alcoholic bikes have minimal or no factory support.

JPSLotus said:

Can someone tell me what HRC would be doing out there if they didn't have Marquez? They have a deadbeat on their other factory seat. They have a .... on their factory satellite. Their alcoholic bikes have minimal or no factory support.

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Haha. To be fair HRC had a contender in Pedrosa this year. Don't you remember Cunty said he was glad Pedro lost his 2nd in points position? I think Michelin have way more to do with Pedrosa's struggles than does the RCV.

HRC definitely can't afford to lose Marc, so fair point; but do you think there would be any shortage of riders wanting to go replace that seat? And good Riders too, like Lorenzo. Now if they lost Marc to Ducati, would you put your money on Ducati winning the championship or the Japanese?

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Jumkie said:

Haha. To be fair HRC had a contender in Pedrosa this year. Don't you remember Cunty said he was glad Pedro lost his 2nd in points position? I think Michelin have way more to do with Pedrosa's struggles than does the RCV.

HRC definitely can't afford to lose Marc, so fair point; but do you think there would be any shortage of riders wanting to go replace that seat? And good Riders too, like Lorenzo. Now if they lost Marc to Ducati, would you put your money on Ducati winning the championship or the Japanese?

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

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If Marc was on the Ducati he would still be champion.

Crutchlow who is on the grid and has been able to have a better look at the bikes than we have recommended to Miller he go to Ducati because the bikes easier to ride and he will have better results.

Jumkie said:

Haha. To be fair HRC had a contender in Pedrosa this year. Don't you remember Cunty said he was glad Pedro lost his 2nd in points position? I think Michelin have way more to do with Pedrosa's struggles than does the RCV.

HRC definitely can't afford to lose Marc, so fair point; but do you think there would be any shortage of riders wanting to go replace that seat? And good Riders too, like Lorenzo. Now if they lost Marc to Ducati, would you put your money on Ducati winning the championship or the Japanese?

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

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There will never be a shortage of riders wanting to ride a factory Honda while making millions of dollars. The question is, who out there could do anything with it.

p4p1 said:

If Marc was on the Ducati he would still be champion.

Crutchlow who is on the grid and has been able to have a better look at the bikes than we have recommended to Miller he go to Ducati because the bikes easier to ride and he will have better results.

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This is hilarious. Cuntslow gave Miller advice about Ducati and you're using this to make what point?

Maybe Cuntslow can give Lorenzo advice too, hey man, Ducati is easy, that's why I quit riding for them.

It's an interesting thought, but I don’t think we will ever see Marc with Ducati. Marquez is happy and enjoying #1 status, he's having success, most importantly though Marc including his circle of friends understand he would struggle at Ducati like every other former GP champion. He might eventually win at Ducati, but it wouldn't be straight away because Honda and Yamaha would still be the better package, and they'd attract contenders, like Viñalez and Lorenzo. Remember, in a Marc Ducati scenario there still exists Honda and Yamaha! Rossi left Yamaha for Ducati sulking and Lorenzo left because it was an extremely toxic environment, Marc will never be in this predicament. So it's a fun hypothetical, but if we're going to reasonably entertain the discussion, then we should factor in that Ducati have, are, and will be always chasing the two Japanese. How is this logic missed: we have placed the blame on the poor Honda and unsuitable Michelin for Marc's struggles last year and the beginning of this year, but we assume he wouldn't experience similar struggles at Ducati? The third best manufacturer. That seems odd.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

povol said:

There will never be a shortage of riders wanting to ride a factory Honda while making millions of dollars. The question is, who out there could do anything with it.

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Well, the question I'm entertaining is, would you put your money on HRC/Yamaha or a Marc Ducati? We didn’t think Stoner could be replaced, Marc did, that was partly because at the time the RCV was by far the best package on the grid. Even still, Marc won it by a mere 5 points, and that's with an injured Lorenzo.

Why is it so difficult to imagine what has happened to Lorenzo at Ducati happening to a smaller degree with a hypothetical Marc at Ducati? Lorenzo going to Ducati effectively took him out of title contention, we agree, so I ask you a question, would Lorenzo be a title contender for 2017 if he were teammates to Viñalez and Rossi retired? It's not hard to imagine, the answer is yes. Yet, it seems impossible to imagine Marc at Ducati would still produce a favorable position for Honda/Yamaha. This is fascinating.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Jumkie said:

Pov, you're taking issue with the comparison that Dovi has done something with the Ducati that nobody has been able to do since 2007? There certainly are similarities without having to conflate that Dovi is Stoner, which is NOT what Birdy said.......
...... That my friend is a reasonable Stoner territory comparison..

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birdman said:

......But back to Dovi his fellow Duc team mates are looking over his data and are scratching their heads trying to figure out how the hell is this guy actually contending for the title, how does he ride like that? It's up there in Stoner territory. .......

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Geebus, Jumkie, you even say it. The Maniac won on the NEW Ducati, last year, beating Dovi, so what is up with that?. And what about Petrucci, isn't he on a new Ducati?

Top nine - 3 Hondas, 3 Yamahas, 3 Ducatis. This is a new era with the rule changes and different Ducati front office. I am shocked Ducati paid Lorenzo more money and keep Stoner to test, since Doviziso is the second coming of Rossi, or something. Honestly, I like Dovi, but if you think this bike is like the 800cc, you are way off base. Will someone PLEASE get Stoner to come back and kick ass on ALL the Ducati riders, just so we can end this bull .... argument. Thanks.

JPSLotus said:

Can someone tell me what HRC would be doing out there if they didn't have Marquez? They have a deadbeat on their other factory seat. They have a .... on their factory satellite. Their alcoholic bikes have minimal or no factory support.

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Exactly. Their top rider would be in FIFTH! They need Stoner back, too.