Alex Criville MotoGP Legend

Richy56 said:

Never saw randy, but if you say so! He was second best though.

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But everyone remembers him - which given your assertion is the point being made.

Although, he wasn't necessarily 'second best'. A combination of fate, on occasions machinery and extremely talented opposition conspired against him with the result that he just never won the title.

Had Rainey not had the freak accident it's very likely that we would be saying the same about Schwantz yet most wouldn't hesitate in branding him a legend.

Arrabbiata1 said:

But everyone remembers him - which given your assertion is the point being made.

Although, he wasn't necessarily 'second best'. A combination of fate, on occasions machinery and extremely talented opposition conspired against him with the result that he just never won the title.

Had Rainey not had the freak accident it's very likely that we would be saying the same about Schwantz yet most wouldn't hesitate in branding him a legend.

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Agree he is remembered, but never saw him so agree also.

We will never know if Rainey would have beaten Schwantz again. but he couldn't prove it unfortunately and Kev still turned up and beat some very good riders.

I could I think Kato would have been one of the greatest ever, but we will never know. That's racing, randy will be remembered as a nearly man unfortunately like Dani.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Had Rainey not had the freak accident it's very likely that we would be saying the same about Schwantz yet most wouldn't hesitate in branding him a legend.

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Not just Rainey's freak accident either but that was also MD's recovery year from the Dutch butcher.

I will not be popular but I do not place Schwantz up there with Rainey who I personally use as a 'marker' for what I consider a legend along with my personal favourite of MD (Lawson and Freddie rounding out the top 4 of those I have watched).

I fully recognise that what Schwantz achieved on that Suzuki was a number of years of simply awesome performances where he was over-riding the bike and so yes he is there but for me, not quite in the category of Rainey etc.

Call it controversial but we likely all have our own impressions of what makes a legend and so this could well be an interesting discussion

As for Mamola, he was as you say, in a way wrong place wrong time as the level or quality of competition was excessively high . an era often forgotten when we see people talk of today as being the golden era but in Mamola's day there were a lot more potential and genuine race winners than we see today

JPSLotus said:

Here's a thought, if he finishes his career without ever winning a championship, can you consider Dani Pedrosa a Legend? He has had more career wins than some champions, yet never bagged the title.

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That's who I was thinking of as GLOAT. But I don't mean it in a derogatory way...
He's famously had injuries but, he's always had the physical disadvantage of his size. So I'm thinking maybe the degree of difficulty is just greater for him and he deserves recognition for that?


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Cool Blue said:

That's who I was thinking of as GLOAT. But I don't mean it in a derogatory way...
He's famously had injuries but, he's always had the physical disadvantage of his size. So I'm thinking maybe the degree of difficulty is just greater for him and he deserves recognition for that?

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Thing is Cool, as we have learnt in the Assen thread, to fall is more glorious than it if to finish some races, thus perhaps Pedrosa is indeed deserving given that he has experienced frequent falls

On GP wins Id say Pedro was definitely a legend. Also on being known.

Arrabbiata1 said:

But everyone remembers him - which given your assertion is the point being made.

Although, he wasn't necessarily 'second best'. A combination of fate, on occasions machinery and extremely talented opposition conspired against him with the result that he just never won the title.

Had Rainey not had the freak accident it's very likely that we would be saying the same about Schwantz yet most wouldn't hesitate in branding him a legend.

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Even though it took misfortune to get Schwantz that title, even had he not won one, it'd be insane to say he wasn't a legend based on what he did when riding. His performance at Assen, Hockenheim, and Donington Park in 1991 were legendary. Sure Assen had to see Rainey make a mistake coming into the final chicane, but Schwantz had to be there to capitalize. That late braking job he did to overtake Rainey coming into the stadium section at the Agipkurve is still stunning to look at. We talk about how great a late braker Rossi is, but I'm not sure I've ever seen a late braking job as perfectly executed as the one Schwantz did there.

Randy Mamola is an interesting one since he highlights the fickle nature of motor racing at large where timing, luck, and fortune are as much determiners to GP success as talent is. It's easy to label him as a second place man, and it's a label that while not inaccurate, also overlooks that there was no shame in being second in those days. The mid-80s thru the early 90s saw possibly one of the best overall levels of talent ever assembled at the front of the grid.

Gaz said:

Not just Rainey's freak accident either but that was also MD's recovery year from the Dutch butcher.

I will not be popular but I do not place Schwantz up there with Rainey who I personally use as a 'marker' for what I consider a legend along with my personal favourite of MD (Lawson and Freddie rounding out the top 4 of those I have watched).

I fully recognise that what Schwantz achieved on that Suzuki was a number of years of simply awesome performances where he was over-riding the bike and so yes he is there but for me, not quite in the category of Rainey etc.

Call it controversial but we likely all have our own impressions of what makes a legend and so this could well be an interesting discussion

As for Mamola, he was as you say, in a way wrong place wrong time as the level or quality of competition was excessively high . an era often forgotten when we see people talk of today as being the golden era but in Mamola's day there were a lot more potential and genuine race winners than we see today

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I know I'm just putting it out there, but bet if you asked Rainey, he'd tell you that Schwantz is a legend.

Keshav said:

I know I'm just putting it out there, but bet if you asked Rainey, he'd tell you that Schwantz is a legend.

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I suspect that if you asked a lot of these guys they would say that rider X is a legend as well, each for their own reasons be that a rivalry that pushed one rider to heights that they recognise they could not have achieved without that rival, or be it the way in which the person recovered or managed injury, or be it a skillset that the riders see but we cannot or refuse to see.