A Dead Horse

i believe feel is an important factor which seperates the great from the good... looks like that aspect is gone.

you know whats next, automatic gear shifting then my granny can enter motogp

I agree, the bikes seem to be getting too smart and taking the skill away from the rider.

It makes the races more predictable as people don't make as many mistakes.

Bring on the control ECU or chuck out the electronics all together!

I guess that means nowadays the top category (in terms of riding skills neccesary) is 250cc.

O btw they do have semiautomatic shifting, they don't need to touch the clutch during acceleration, the computer shuts the power the time the gear lever is being actioned.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Nov 7 2007, 01:23 AM) [snapback]99364[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Forgive me for opening old wounds, but this quote from Dovi seems quite telling. For me, it's one of the clearest (and i assume honest and frank) initial reactions to the 800's TC system...
Seems like a statement worthy of commentary. Does this take away too much from the rider if most of the throttle control in the corners is handled by a computer?


wow !


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Teomolca @ Nov 7 2007, 10:53 AM) [snapback]99420[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
O btw they do have semiautomatic shifting, they don't need to touch the clutch during acceleration, the computer shuts the power the time the gear lever is being actioned.



... called a quickshifter teo, been around for years

Lets see how well he does first. It's easier to get on the gas with TC, but that doesn't mean it's easy to setup and race for 30 laps. Capirossi proved that this year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(#36 Fan @ Nov 7 2007, 03:19 AM) [snapback]99398[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I agree, the bikes seem to be getting too smart and taking the skill away from the rider.

It makes the races more predictable as people don't make as many mistakes.

Bring on the control ECU or chuck out the electronics all together!


I am not against this but it doesn't have to be a thing that is handed out. Simply determine a threshold on data transmission speed. This would not allow the feedback loop enough time to calculate and control the machine to the degree where it is now. To monitor this the bikes would be live to a central network that would "watch" the transmission rate of the ECU was within a certain limit realtime. It is very simple to do.

If TC/electronics made it so easy, then how did Rossi end up with broken bones in his hand and a smashed bike on Saturday?

Id say Rossi probably clipped the artificial turf next to the ripple strip, causing a rapid loss of traction, like Melandri did earlier in the year, having similar results..

Curve would have been happy to FINALLY see some high-sides..

I think it was too much throttle. These bikes aren't fool proof and lets not balme the fact that Rossi was "too dependant on the electronics whisch should have saved him" He made an error and he paid for it. Stoner has had a few this year, its just a shame Rossi got hurt.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hopper_fan @ Nov 7 2007, 02:37 PM) [snapback]99474[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
If TC/electronics made it so easy, then how did Rossi end up with broken bones in his hand and a smashed bike on Saturday?


Rossi has to ride the yam extra hard to get anywhere, i think hes trying to over do it and this happens sometimes.

If you have a fast bike you can ride in your confort zone on these bikes and not fall off even with 60 degree lean!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(antfan @ Nov 7 2007, 06:51 PM) [snapback]99598[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>


Curve would have been happy to FINALLY see some high-sides..




is my sandwich ready little lady?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Nov 7 2007, 08:55 PM) [snapback]99600[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
as i said in my post, please watch the actual video. he never leaves the tarmac until after the 3 big moments. there is a bump at the turn that everybody hits and somehow his TC didn't pick back up after the bike tried 3 times to throw him.

EDIT: found a video here. it starts at about :42 and you can see the onboard shot after the cut.

I would bet that since the Yam is down on power to everything else on the grid - Rossi had less TC dialed in and when he hit the bump - just a little badly - he lost it. anyway concerning TC - I think we should get bike to the formula rider + bike as the ingredients (no TC - tires as teams choose - with all tires available to all teams) - Capirossi got it right when he said half of 2007 moto-gp starters would probably fall off on the 1st lap if they rode the 500 2-strokes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ptk50 @ Nov 8 2007, 06:26 PM) [snapback]99783[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I would bet that since the Yam is down on power to everything else on the grid - Rossi had less TC dialed in and when he hit the bump - just a little badly - he lost it.


The yam being down on power is irrelevant in this accident as it clearly happened from using too much power. The power delivery or chassis are the limiting factor to corner exit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Nov 9 2007, 02:58 PM) [snapback]99930[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
The yam being down on power is irrelevant in this accident as it clearly happened from using too much power



+1 Tom




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Nov 8 2007, 12:40 AM) [snapback]99595[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
this is an excellent question. i'm not sure if you saw the accident, but as soon as i saw it, i thought to myself, "his TC is messed up" because if you go back and look at it, he loses the rear on the little bump and then he has 3 HUGE moments before he goes off. if his TC was dialed in, the bike would have settled after the first big moment and he would have ridden on thru.



It's an excellent question, excellent answer too.

Man that has to be a traction control problem. I can't see how it's anything else. On the onboard it starts before he's got to the outside of the track, but after the apex, just where you would expect he'd be well on the gas. Why would he shut off there? It's like he's held the throttle open thinking it would correct itself but the thing just gets in a twist. It was a big one and Rossi was lucky to only hurt his hand.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Nov 9 2007, 03:58 PM) [snapback]99930[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
The yam being down on power is irrelevant in this accident as it clearly happened from using too much power. The power delivery or chassis are the limiting factor to corner exit.


Yes, managed by TC....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Teomolca @ Nov 7 2007, 10:53 AM) [snapback]99420[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I guess that means nowadays the top category (in terms of riding skills neccesary) is 250cc.

O btw they do have semiautomatic shifting, they don't need to touch the clutch during acceleration, the computer shuts the power the time the gear lever is being actioned.

it just interrupts the ignition, using a micro switch on the gear leaver, thats been used for donkeys years, .... , i had that on my road bike 10 years ago.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ptk50 @ Nov 8 2007, 06:26 PM) [snapback]99783[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I would bet that since the Yam is down on power to everything else on the grid - Rossi had less TC dialed in and when he hit the bump - just a little badly - he lost it. anyway concerning TC - I think we should get bike to the formula rider + bike as the ingredients (no TC - tires as teams choose - with all tires available to all teams) - Capirossi got it right when he said half of 2007 moto-gp starters would probably fall off on the 1st lap if they rode the 500 2-strokes.

I think that sums it up. The TC purests amongst us would say that what is actually happening is that the bike is being riden outside the TC envelope. If the envelope is large then there is less chance of this happening. The smaller the envelope is, ie the "less" TC you have dialled in, the easier it is to exceed the envelope.

BTW - Has anyone considered that the Duck might be inherently unstable. I have spent a lot of my working life on the software for the Eurofighter which is inherently unstable in order to achieve the agililty required, and hence my question.

If I am right it would explain a couple of things :
re3
1) Why Stoner can come off a turn flat chat with the bike looking like it's looking for a place to have an accident, but it continues through the corner crossed up to an an extent you see on no other motogp bike.

2) why Capi found it such a nightmare - if it is inherently unstable then think about the way Capi rode the Duck 990's,especially the early ones. If you've ridden something like that then tell me that you'd be able to trust the electronics on the new bike. Bear in mind that no-one other than Capi could ride the Duck when it first came to Motogp. Also, it looked like a complete animal back then.