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500 vs 800 vs 990 vs TC

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mylexicon @ Nov 16 2007, 06:29 PM) [snapback]101159[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
What a political hack
<
Cultural self-loathing is so en vogue in America these days, you'll get no respect from me for sucking euro .... like a beta-male. You're an American, so you should get comfortable with our flaws
<

I'm guessing you're being sarcastic here. If not, then pull your head out of your redneck Nascar .... If Americans as a whole knew anything about bikes we'd have decent home-grown bikes instead of Harley crap. The only one of us I have any faith in is Erik Buell. We've had some good riders, but all the American bike mags are 65% ads and 35% political ......... I read a 600 shootout last year in which the 2006 GSX-R won and the R6 got last place. This year, in the same rag with the same writer and testers, the GSX-R came in last and the R6 was second. The funny part is that the GSX-R and R6 haven't changed AT ALL for 2007 as they were new models in '06. I did notice a lot more Yamaha ads in the mag this year tho.
<


I'm patriotic as hell. I'd like to burn ......... cities like Berkeley and San Francisco to the ground. That doesn't mean I can't see fault in biased reporting and a lack of American made sport bikes that don't suck. I've got my fingers crossed for the Buell 1125R tho.

If you were indeed being sarcastic then disregard the redneck Nascar part.
<


P.S: Not sure if you didn't know, but Benedict Arnold saved the revolution. If he hadn't later been betrayed by other generals including Washington he would never have gone British.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mylexicon @ Nov 16 2007, 06:41 PM) [snapback]101162[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
So therefore taming a 500 is impossible.

Thank you medieval Catholic church.

Heh. Good one on that tho.
<
 
I think Outboard motor manufacturers are doing some pretty "shmick" tricks with electronics these days ..... why would we assume that would not transpose to bikes??
 
There's no reason why you can't use TC in a 2 stroke engine. It wasn't done in the 500cc probably cause the technology was not available at a price within the 500cc era budgets.

A 2 stroke engine has roughly 70-80% more power than it's 4 stroke counterpart with same displacement because of the reasons mentioned by others before.

The 990 was chosen cause MSMA wanted to be sure they would beat the 500cc bikes. It would've been fairer to have 800cc then, but it could have ended in a major embarrasment for the manufacturers.

The 800cc have the same weight as the 990cc so I think they are probably very similar to ride.

A 250cc has half the power and 40kg less, VERY different.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Teomolca @ Nov 17 2007, 01:08 AM) [snapback]101214[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
There's no reason why you can't use TC in a 2 stroke engine. It wasn't done in the 500cc probably cause the technology was not available at a price within the 500cc era budgets.

A 2 stroke engine has roughly 70-80% more power than it's 4 stroke counterpart with same displacement because of the reasons mentioned by others before.

The 990 was chosen cause MSMA wanted to be sure they would beat the 500cc bikes. It would've been fairer to have 800cc then, but it could have ended in a major embarrasment for the manufacturers.

The 800cc have the same weight as the 990cc so I think they are probably very similar to ride.

A 250cc has half the power and 40kg less, VERY different.


I think you got it right on every sigle point there, and as mentioned above your post, outboard 2-strokes are very sofisticated machines with lot's of electronics, direct injection and all.

BTW cutting ignition is not about cutting all sparks not even nesesarily one sprak plug at every ignition point. There is no match for the electronics to go from cutting one cylinder every third pulse to three sylinders every pulse and any combination in between.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Teomolca @ Nov 17 2007, 11:08 AM) [snapback]101214[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
A 2 stroke engine has roughly 70-80% more power than it's 4 stroke counterpart with same displacement because of the reasons mentioned by others before.


Well said!!

And I can never understand why folk want to bring back the "old 500's" as if they were some kind of beast ..... the 990's eclipsed then by far in that sense.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Teomolca @ Nov 16 2007, 04:08 PM) [snapback]101214[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
There's no reason why you can't use TC in a 2 stroke engine. It wasn't
A 2 stroke engine has roughly 70-80% more power than it's 4 stroke counterpart with same displacement because of the reasons mentioned by others before.
However, a key difference is the shape of the power curve. Tiw strokes, when tuned for racing, generally have a very peaky torque curve resulting in a narrrow power band. Keeping the engine revs in that power band took a lot more skill, IMHO, than riding the 990cc "beasts". The only problem riders appeared to have was engine braking which made it difficult to enter corners in their existing two stroke style. thats problem was fixed with effective slipper clutches.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(crvlvr @ Nov 19 2007, 09:27 PM) [snapback]101493[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
However, a key difference is the shape of the power curve. Tiw strokes, when tuned for racing, generally have a very peaky torque curve resulting in a narrrow power band. Keeping the engine revs in that power band took a lot more skill, IMHO, than riding the 990cc "beasts". The only problem riders appeared to have was engine braking which made it difficult to enter corners in their existing two stroke style. thats problem was fixed with effective slipper clutches.


I don't know. They later years the focus has been on driveabilty. You don't see much increase in 250 power, but you see bikes that are a lot faster.
As an example of drivabilty; Did you know that the WRC cars of today with a max power about 320 are much faster than the old no limits, 8-900hp cars back in the '80's?
That driveability trend had allready reached GP500 some years before it ended. The last version of the Honda were described by journalists that tested it as a very civilized bike. In other words, they did all they could to remove the typical 2-stroke character of the engines. With today's 2-stroke technology, engine management, electonic injection they would not be very differnt to ride from the 990/800.
 
Agreed drivability come into play and is more important than peak power. However, another key variable ia available traction. If traction is no longer availbale there is no use for the excess power and engines will be tuned to make better use of available traction (applicable in the case of WRC too as they are usually driving beyond the available traction).

This was the case when MotoGP went from 500cc to 990cc. Tire traction and durability limited how the power could/should be laid on the track. With the drop to 800cc, manufacturers are going back to peaky/screamer engines and trying to coax ridability back into the machines using electronic means.

The amount of tuning that can be done on two strokes is limited as they have have no valves and depend a lot on porting and expansion chamber configuration -- neither of which can be changes by electronic means.

I figure the 800cc bikes now are have the same power to weight ratio as 500cc machines. I think this supports your point on improved drivability/ridability.
 
Nobody seems to be taking into account the power changes available by changing the amount of fuel into the engine. I would have thought this was something the electronics do a lot of work on.
 
I can only see the point of comparing the 500s, 990s and 800s if they were racing in the same season. Aside from the engine, there are other things to consider like tires and fuel capacity for instance, which largely dictates how the engines should behave (inorder to produce a fast lap).

Though we saw some seasons of 500s against 990s, it was not a fair comparison IMO since the 500s were pretty much at their peak of development (or rather, no manufacturer were willing to invest FURTHER in this technology) while the major players were busy tinkering with their new toys (990s).

Though we did see a race of 990 vs 800 (Ilmor), but that wasn't really racing was it? Sometimes, I wish that the GP7 was rolled out for the last race last season just to see how it stacked up against the 990...

For the 800s, I still feel that it's too early to pass judgment (whether the 990s were more spectacular/entertaining to watch). After all, we have to admit, only one manufacturer (honda) knew pretty much what it was doing during that era (bearing in mind that Yamaha had 2 years of that but it's another debate whether it was the machine or the man seating on it that made the different... let's not get into that!)

For me, it was a bit premature really that we have this rule change just when the other players figured out how to compete (can you remember how many edge of you seat racing there was last season?).

There will be better racing next season (fingers crossed) now that everyone's got a taste of the 800s. They already saw what works (ex, screamer motor, unconventional valvetrains, importance of engine management and aero). I do hope for the tires that both manufacturer get it right (on equal terms) so that it will just be up to the bikes and riders, but that would be asking for too much ain't it.

my 2 cents.
 
[quote I'm patriotic as hell. I'd like to burn ......... cities like Berkeley and San Francisco to the ground. That doesn't mean I can't see fault in biased reporting and a lack of American made sport bikes that don't suck. I've got my fingers crossed for the Buell 1125R tho.

Yeah well we've had 7 years of your type of patriosm and it hasn't worked out quite so well has it.
Let's eliminate a bunch of Americans that don't agree with you and
that will solve all our problems. Some Patriot you are.
You want to start burning cities than start with Washington. Try cutting the head off the problem not the toenails
 
Oh here we go with ........ Bush bashing. Why is it always popular to bash the Republican presidents, but not the Democrats anyway? All the pretentious ........ and self-righteous celebrities bashed Bush Jr, Sr, and Reagan, but they all loved ....... and Carter. I guess they didn't mind the gas crisis or the new recession.

The liberal ... holes in SF an Berkeley are Communists. They always want to tell us what we can and can not do with our freedom. No chopping down trees! No guns! No fast cars! No fast bikes! No spanking your kids! No keeping your money! Commie .......s!

By the way, Bush is one man. No one ever thinks to blame congress for anything do they? People need to learn about how our government works before they start criticizing the president alone. And if you think the government is bad here, go live somewhere else for 10 years and see how much you'll pay in taxes, insurance, and gasoline before you get oppressed. The stupid kids who always talk about revolution are always the undiciplined, uneducated little ..... in places like the aforementioned ......... regimes. I know wtf I'm talking about. I've lived in this ......... state (California) long enough that I would love to watch it burn to rubble before my eyes.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Nov 20 2007, 12:38 AM) [snapback]101511[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I don't know. They later years the focus has been on driveabilty. You don't see much increase in 250 power, but you see bikes that are a lot faster.
As an example of drivabilty; Did you know that the WRC cars of today with a max power about 320 are much faster than the old no limits, 8-900hp cars back in the '80's?



I have heard that the WRC cars now are tuned so they make roughly 200bhp from tickover and work with complete drivability from their until the 320 bhp they achieve at the rev limit.

Too right about the last two strokes being relitively tame, drivable machines too.

<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Nov 20 2007, 09:57 AM) [snapback]101537[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Too right about the last two strokes being relitively tame, drivable machines too.
Yeah, either they tamed the hell outa them towards the end of their lifespan or the riders just magically got used to them. I remember them being a lot crazier in the "olden days" (I'm not THAT old... really).
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(motojt @ Nov 20 2007, 10:16 AM) [snapback]101545[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Yeah, either they tamed the hell outa them towards the end of their lifespan or the riders just magically got used to them. I remember them being a lot crazier in the "olden days" (I'm not THAT old... really).


A lot of the difference is tyre technology too. In the early 90's the tyre technology was nothiong compared to what it is now, or even was in the late 90's. When they tyres became more able to deal with big power the 500's became much less of an issue.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(motojt @ Nov 20 2007, 04:12 AM) [snapback]101532[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Oh here we go with ........ Bush bashing. Why is it always popular to bash the Republican presidents, but not the Democrats anyway? All the pretentious ........ and self-righteous celebrities bashed Bush Jr, Sr, and Reagan, but they all loved ....... and Carter. I guess they didn't mind the gas crisis or the new recession.

The liberal ... holes in SF an Berkeley are Communists. They always want to tell us what we can and can not do with our freedom. No chopping down trees! No guns! No fast cars! No fast bikes! No spanking your kids! No keeping your money! Commie .......s!

By the way, Bush is one man. No one ever thinks to blame congress for anything do they? People need to learn about how our government works before they start criticizing the president alone. And if you think the government is bad here, go live somewhere else for 10 years and see how much you'll pay in taxes, insurance, and gasoline before you get oppressed. The stupid kids who always talk about revolution are always the undiciplined, uneducated little ..... in places like the aforementioned ......... regimes. I know wtf I'm talking about. I've lived in this ......... state (California) long enough that I would love to watch it burn to rubble before my eyes.


Thank you for stating your small minded cartoon version of the world to an international forum.
Now maybe the world can understand why we have such ineffective blundering leadership.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JohnnyKnockdown @ Nov 20 2007, 12:38 PM) [snapback]101569[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Thank you for stating your small minded cartoon version of the world to an international forum.
Now maybe the world can understand why we have such ineffective blundering leadership.

Didn't you mean to say that since you don't know what you're talking about and are one of those ......... ........ that real Americans are sick of you have nothing productive to add? That must be the case since you equate two ...... towns to 'the world.' Typical. Now the world can understand that they only need to hate a small pecentage of our population, not the whole country.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(motojt @ Nov 20 2007, 08:01 PM) [snapback]101623[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Didn't you mean to say that since you don't know what you're talking about and are one of those ......... ........ that real Americans are sick of you have nothing productive to add? That must be the case since you equate two ...... towns to 'the world.' Typical. Now the world can understand that they only need to hate a small pecentage of our population, not the whole country.


I really really think we should go back to talking MotoGP.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Nov 20 2007, 10:57 AM) [snapback]101537[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I have heard that the WRC cars now are tuned so they make roughly 200bhp from tickover and work with complete drivability from their until the 320 bhp they achieve at the rev limit.

Too right about the last two strokes being relitively tame, drivable machines too.

<



Yeah, if I got it right they have plenty of fuel but limited air, turbo pressure and revs. Max horse power is more or less at the theoretical maximum and all the work go into torque/power at the lower revs.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Nov 20 2007, 09:28 PM) [snapback]101648[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I really really think we should go back to talking MotoGP.
I totally agree.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(crvlvr @ Nov 20 2007, 01:59 AM) [snapback]101513[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Agreed drivability come into play and is more important than peak power. However, another key variable ia available traction. If traction is no longer availbale there is no use for the excess power and engines will be tuned to make better use of available traction (applicable in the case of WRC too as they are usually driving beyond the available traction).

This was the case when MotoGP went from 500cc to 990cc. Tire traction and durability limited how the power could/should be laid on the track. With the drop to 800cc, manufacturers are going back to peaky/screamer engines and trying to coax ridability back into the machines using electronic means.


Yes, maximum power suddenly played a significant role again, especially as Ducati it seems, managed to combine the most power with the best tc.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>
The amount of tuning that can be done on two strokes is limited as they have have no valves and depend a lot on porting and expansion chamber configuration -- neither of which can be changes by electronic means.

I don't agree there. A continued development would have seen a number of inovations, both in general design and in combining electronics and mechanics, making the 2-strokes both cleaner, more drivable and more powerful. But we will never see that, will we.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>
I figure the 800cc bikes now are have the same power to weight ratio as 500cc machines. I think this supports your point on improved drivability/ridability.


Sure, the general design of four strokes make them more driveable and true, with 800's we are close to the same power/weight ratio allthough that will allways be a limited measurment, as most are.
 

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