125's and 250's: One make series?

What make? Honda, KTM or Aprillia won't be exactly thrilled about leaving, so how do you pick?

Interesting thought...I can see where you are coming from, but I do think it would demean the series a bit. I think GP racing should be about prototypes, and pushing engineering as much as the racing itself.

Their going to be on 600s before long anyway, there isnt the need for riders to know how to ride a 2 stroke, now that they are too politically incorrect for Honda. Sorry I mean the environment. The scene is changing, and sadly the 125s and 250s are about as relevant as the 80cc bikes were by the mid to late 80s.

I suppose though, times change, but for me, there will always be something so pure and single purpose about a 2 stroke race bike, be it a 125, 250, 500 or even an old 750.

But then I am pushing 40 now.....

Pete







<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Nov 26 2006, 08:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Obviously these things would have to be negotiated, probably Aprilia for the 250's, maybe Honda for the 125's. Possibly even an independant chassis constructor? Although I dont think there are many of those in the bike racing world.

I think 125s still have a bit of life in them, but things are looking grim for the 250s. Supersport racing has replaced 250GP racing in a lot of countries, but 125 classes are still popular.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think 125s still have a bit of life in them, but things are
looking grim for the 250s. Supersport racing has replaced 250GP
racing in a lot of countries, but 125 classes are still popular.

There's a two stroke revolution taking place in the uk next year so
watch out!

ACU's Dunlop tyres MotoStar 250 Cup is on it's way as the
new British 250 Championship!

Can anyone here really see Honda being kicked out of 125's or 250's without a fight? Lets face it, a Honda boycott of MotoGP would probably finish it off, you'd have a grid of seven or eight bikes. Honda don't tend to appreciate being bossed around

So anyway. My opinion on the actual topic

As a racing fan one manufacturer same spec championships are great. It's real level racing where the racers ability is what counts.

However. GP is as mentioned above also about leaps in engineering to set the standard of what a motorcycle can do! With a one manufacturer series you lose this. As someone who's not really interested the machines themselves i'd think that wouldn't be much loss. That's not the case so much though as it is exciting to know...


...the bikes are the best. Also in the small classes one of the highlights for me is supporting the out the back of the house in austria ktm team. Make them a sole supplier (ha) and that would be gone. Also in arguement for different manufacturers it is always exciting the one team has better handling, another more grunt down the straights - all adds to the story and excitement of what's going on. As i pretty much live for the story of entertainment (hence i watch gp's) that's a big plus to have more...


...levels to enjoy.

I can see good in both. But overall i would say if there are the manufacturerS that want to make bikes for the classes then let them and one manufacturer should come if there's only really one interested. Is that what's happened with 250's and tyres being supplied by Dunlop?

As for support classes shouldn't be GP - I couldn't disagree with that more. It is one thing that makes a GP weekend more special than any other motorsport - there's not just one main race, there are THREE!

NO WAY!

250cc and 125cc are 2 categories of the World championship of road bike racing (MotoGP being the other one). Just because now the MotoGP/500cc is a more popular category it doesn't mean the other 2 are not important competitive championships (in many places they used to be more important than 500cc).

Nowadays 250cc has been badly treated because of the .... environmental laws, that have reduced the money spent in 2strokes massively, but make no mistake, with equal budgets and rules, 250cc would wipe the floor with MotoGP bikes in many tracks.

One make series are OK in feeder categories and national championships, but there's no room for them in World championships.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IsraeliRacer @ Nov 27 2006, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Can anyone here really see Honda being kicked out of 125's or 250's without a fight? Lets face it, a Honda boycott of MotoGP would probably finish it off, you'd have a grid of seven or eight bikes. Honda don't tend to appreciate being bossed around

No, but the fact is that Honda have never wanted to build 2 strokes. Sochiro Honda hated them, and Honda tried to race 4 strokes in GP a long time ago, remember the NR 500?

I'm sure Honda would be more than happy to make smaller capacity 4 strokes, and who is going to argue with them?

The sad fact is that there is the technology to make fuel efficient 2 strokes out there, the orbital car engine and the (shock horror!) Honda active radical. With the Honda AR engine, they made an excellent trail bike in the last CRM250, and the amazing EXP1 Dakar machine, that finished well up in 1995 despite being much smaller capacity (400) than the Yamahas and BMWs of the time (850 and 950)

I'd like to see the 125s and 250s stay just as they are, but evidently, moves are afoot to move to 4 strokes for "environmental" reasons.

I say introduce 4 four cylinder 750 2 strokes, that would show who the boss really is!

Pete

IMO one manifacturers in 125s and 250s would be a bad idea. there are already single manifacturer series races anyway,like the telifonica ect.
if that happened in 125 and 250gp racing the manifacturers could hold the promoters and organisers to ransom like i believe honda did a while back when they were pushing for smaller cc bikes.
i think the sport should move with the times and if that means 3 4 stroke races of different cc's then great but not one make.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Nov 27 2006, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>IMO one manifacturers in 125s and 250s would be a bad idea. there are already single manifacturer series races anyway,like the telifonica ect.
if that happened in 125 and 250gp racing the manifacturers could hold the promoters and organisers to ransom like i believe honda did a while back when they were pushing for smaller cc bikes.
i think the sport should move with the times and if that means 3 4 stroke races of different cc's then great but not one make.

Yep leave the one make series for the support classes, (remember the world supers were known as the Ducati cup for a good while!) and bring back Pro Am LC Racing!!!!!

Pete

A single make GP series is not a good idea, especially at a world championship level. 125s and 250s might not get the development recourses of MotoGP bikes, but it is still a GP series. Puropse built race bikes that should be made to go, and go hard, not that a single make series wouldn't have fast bikes, but, like tyres, having competition encourages manufacters to make better bikes, and shave every possible millisecond off the lap time. That, to me, is GP racing. Regardless of whether it's 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Having a level playing field is good for action, like WSB proves, but like McGregor said, GP is the "Fastest men on the fastest bikes in the world" If they let Aprillia or more likely Honda run the show, you could garuntee the bikes wouldn't be developed as fast as they are now. Sure, it's good for on-track action, but GP racing should be a competition between factories and teams, not just riders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (teomolca @ Nov 28 2006, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nowadays 250cc has been badly treated because of the .... environmental laws, that have reduced the money spent in 2strokes massively, but make no mistake, with equal budgets and rules, 250cc would wipe the floor with MotoGP bikes in many tracks.

You really think a 250 GP bike with the equal development recourses could beat a 990/800 MotoGP bike, Teo? Don't you think that's stretching the limit of physics a bit? I mean, a fully developed FI 500 I could buy, but even if it's a two stroke, a 250 is a lot smaller engine than a 990 or 800. Unless you mean that it's cheaper to build a 250, so on a certain lower budget you could build a .... hot 250, but with the same budget you could hardly get a prototype on the track. That sounds reasonable, due to the massive costs of 4 stroke GP racing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So you're telling me you view the 125's and 250's on an equal par
with MotoGP? Grand Prix should be the fastest riders on the
fastest, and the most challenging, bikes in the world. 125's and
250's are neither.
Honda would probably be the one with the supplier contract, no
doubts about that

Yes! They are the fastest bikes and fastest riders - just restricted to 125cc and 250cc and so giving the riders different challenges to 800..

...the level of racing in both of
these classes is outstanding. It's always entertaining - you never
know which class is going to throw up the best race. That's how we
know they are equal GPs. Also with the lack of Englishmen or Finns
in the GP it makes the lower classes more interesting from a
personal perspective as there's usually one or two on smaller
bikes.

Btw. Can somebody please help my ignorance and tell me about
yamaha's lack of involvement outside the big bikes in GPs?

I think the idea of grand prix racing being one make is a very bad one. The reason many Manufacturers will go racing is not just to advertise their brand, but because the fastest way to develop technology is in a competetive environment, and this is where the best engineering in the world takes place.

The problem with the 125 and 250 cc classes have is that not many makes are willing to throw money into developing technology that they cannot use on their road bikes, and although 2-stroke technology can go further, whats the point when nobody wants to buy them? The development in the lower classes has been relatively slow in the past few years and i think that KTM (looking for a cost effective way to make themselfes known as good producers of road racing bikes) are really saving the day, by making the more established makes re-think things a bit.

GP racing is as much about engineering as it is riders, and thats what makes it the best motorsport in the world. And for me, a GP weekend is about all 3 classes, not just one. If the smaller classes became one make development would be slower, and you would essentialy have yourself an equivalent of the r6 cup. It can produce exciting racing but i never bother to watch it because without the spectacle of rival machines evolving and developing to gain different strenghts and weeknesses, it all seems a little dull.

Couldn't agree more, Tom.
The problem is, you can't have your cake and eat it, you know? Four strokes are the future of the motorcycle industry, and, like you said, Manufacturers want to develop technology in GP racing. Which is probably why the likes of Yamaha and Ducati don't bother with the smaller classes, because they have no intrestest in spending money to developing 2 stroke technology that either they won't use, or won't be able to get a satisfactory return of investment off. The solution to that problem would apparently be to switch to four strokes like MotoGP did, but that presents another problem of the escalating costs involved with 4 stroke GP racing. One look at how the MotoGP grid diminished so quickly with the introduction of 4 strokes indicates that. I would imagine that many 250 team owners would prefer to be strutting their stuff in MotoGP, but can't due to the massive costs. If/When four strokes replace them, many satellite teams will be forced out by the sky high budgets. I guess it's a choice between having more factories involved and, therefore a greater variety of bikes and technology on the grid, or keeping things as they are, with slow development but expenses that satellite teams can endure, hence a longer entry list

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Nov 28 2006, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Teo? Don't you think that's stretching the limit of physics a bit? I mean, a fully developed FI 500 I could buy, but even if it's a two stroke, a 250 is a lot smaller engine than a 990 or 800.
No, take for example Sachsenring,in 2002 the brand new MotoGPs were barely 1 second faster than 250cc in that track, that's with 250cc being restricted to 2 cylinders, iron brake disks, crap Dunlop tyres and supposedly worse riders than MotoGP. Since then the gap has increased, but so have the difference in budgets and restrictions. A high tech 4+ cyl 250cc with modern Michelins and carbon discs and all the electronic aids would make 990cc 4strokes look like elephants on ice compared to them.

And many times in the past the 250cc were quicker than 500cc, it just takes a twisty track with many corners and short straights.

Remember a 2 stroke is a real racing engine