Anyone knows what kind of development Yamaha has?They say that they still use conven inner cilynder and valve springs and try to tweak that. Pheww....I think this is ridicolous. The others are going straight to the new era, and the Yams still stuck with the old one.I hope they know what they're doing or Vale's decision move to Stones will come to nothing.
Yamaha's new engine
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Honda actually sucks too. Somehow though, they've managed to make their lemon work a lot better than the Yam.
Honda has also failed to develop a new valve arrangement that will allow for greater rpm. Nicky is already begging them to let him run the 2007 engine in the 2008 chassis because he doesn't want to get stuck developing pneumatics for the entire 2008 season. Sadly, if the engine is developed and proven reliable, Pedrosa will get it the next day so it's a lose lose for Nicky I'm afraid. He'll probably have a few more DNF's next season.
Honda has also failed to develop a new valve arrangement that will allow for greater rpm. Nicky is already begging them to let him run the 2007 engine in the 2008 chassis because he doesn't want to get stuck developing pneumatics for the entire 2008 season. Sadly, if the engine is developed and proven reliable, Pedrosa will get it the next day so it's a lose lose for Nicky I'm afraid. He'll probably have a few more DNF's next season.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mylexicon @ Dec 7 2007, 08:07 PM) [snapback]103730[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Sadly, if the engine is developed and proven reliable, Pedrosa will get it the next day so it's a lose lose for Nicky I'm afraid. He'll probably have a few more DNF's next season.
Goodness I sure hope not! I´m counting on a great fight for the championship next year and it sure wouldn´t be the same if Hayden was in the fight!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Dec 7 2007, 11:42 PM) [snapback]103739[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
meh... pneumatics valves are the future but thats not here yet and Honda are gonna have another experimental season instead of getting serious.
Didn´t Yamaha test a pneumatic bike in one of the races this year with Rossi?
Sadly, if the engine is developed and proven reliable, Pedrosa will get it the next day so it's a lose lose for Nicky I'm afraid. He'll probably have a few more DNF's next season.
Goodness I sure hope not! I´m counting on a great fight for the championship next year and it sure wouldn´t be the same if Hayden was in the fight!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Dec 7 2007, 11:42 PM) [snapback]103739[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
meh... pneumatics valves are the future but thats not here yet and Honda are gonna have another experimental season instead of getting serious.
Didn´t Yamaha test a pneumatic bike in one of the races this year with Rossi?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(citadina @ Dec 7 2007, 11:46 PM) [snapback]103742[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Didn´t Yamaha test a pneumatic bike in one of the races this year with Rossi?
yea and look what happened, wasn't much quicker either. (alot of time wasted)
if they work on the fuel consumption, they could have gained a little more speed in an easier way.
Didn´t Yamaha test a pneumatic bike in one of the races this year with Rossi?
yea and look what happened, wasn't much quicker either. (alot of time wasted)
if they work on the fuel consumption, they could have gained a little more speed in an easier way.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mochrifqi @ Dec 7 2007, 04:59 AM) [snapback]103661[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Anyone knows what kind of development Yamaha has?They say that they still use conven inner cilynder and valve springs and try to tweak that. Pheww....I think this is ridicolous. The others are going straight to the new era, and the Yams still stuck with the old one.I hope they know what they're doing or Vale's decision move to Stones will come to nothing.
no idea. sorry
Anyone knows what kind of development Yamaha has?They say that they still use conven inner cilynder and valve springs and try to tweak that. Pheww....I think this is ridicolous. The others are going straight to the new era, and the Yams still stuck with the old one.I hope they know what they're doing or Vale's decision move to Stones will come to nothing.
no idea. sorry
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Dec 8 2007, 12:42 AM) [snapback]103739[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
meh... pneumatics valves are the future but thats not here yet and Honda are gonna have another experimental season instead of getting serious.
You know what? I'm not so sure any more... Honda gained 2,000 additional rpm in a few months just evolving the spring valve engine, and that means 20,000 rpm which is Ducati's level (almost). Come next year, they will all be at that rpm level with the 800's and it is not possible to do much better at present, pneumatic or not. The real development will be in handling and electronics in 2008 - and rubber of course.
meh... pneumatics valves are the future but thats not here yet and Honda are gonna have another experimental season instead of getting serious.
You know what? I'm not so sure any more... Honda gained 2,000 additional rpm in a few months just evolving the spring valve engine, and that means 20,000 rpm which is Ducati's level (almost). Come next year, they will all be at that rpm level with the 800's and it is not possible to do much better at present, pneumatic or not. The real development will be in handling and electronics in 2008 - and rubber of course.
Translation from Motociclismo issue 200 December 2007
"The 2008 M1 isn´t very diferent from last seasons 990, however, the base which apeared in Brno last season has been developed more, evolving constantly.
The dimensions of the engine which maintains a piston angle of 90º, diminished considerably, reducing the lenght 8mm, the distance between the piston angle and the transmission link was reduced 5mm, the total height was reduced 18mm. The maximum rotation increased 2,000 rpm, and a pneumatic distribution system was tested, despeite having worked all year on the evolution of the valve spring system. The Marelli electrical system was further explored, with improvments in the hardware and management, since the central unit is lighter and smaller with less cables and a better positioning on the bike.
Now management of the system pays attention to the section of the track on which the bike is on, managing the handling of the bike diferently from turn to turn. The chassis was also modified in Mugello, especifically the balance, with the introduction of a new front fork and new protections which was once again modified in Brno."
Some of the technical terms have been literally translated so I hope you can still get the gist.
"The 2008 M1 isn´t very diferent from last seasons 990, however, the base which apeared in Brno last season has been developed more, evolving constantly.
The dimensions of the engine which maintains a piston angle of 90º, diminished considerably, reducing the lenght 8mm, the distance between the piston angle and the transmission link was reduced 5mm, the total height was reduced 18mm. The maximum rotation increased 2,000 rpm, and a pneumatic distribution system was tested, despeite having worked all year on the evolution of the valve spring system. The Marelli electrical system was further explored, with improvments in the hardware and management, since the central unit is lighter and smaller with less cables and a better positioning on the bike.
Now management of the system pays attention to the section of the track on which the bike is on, managing the handling of the bike diferently from turn to turn. The chassis was also modified in Mugello, especifically the balance, with the introduction of a new front fork and new protections which was once again modified in Brno."
Some of the technical terms have been literally translated so I hope you can still get the gist.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(citadina @ Dec 8 2007, 11:23 AM) [snapback]103750[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
with the introduction of a new front fork and new protections which was once again modified in Brno."
This is an interesting one to me.
Both Rossi and Stoner use Ohlins forks don't they? And yamaha owns Ohlins .... so did Rossi possibly get the new fork in Bruno that Stoner got in testing in Jerez and said made him 0.5 seconds quicker. It would be in Yamahas favour to pressure Ohlins not to release "the latest" to other teams until they negotiate a new years contract .... but would they do that? or would Rossi get these first too?
with the introduction of a new front fork and new protections which was once again modified in Brno."
This is an interesting one to me.
Both Rossi and Stoner use Ohlins forks don't they? And yamaha owns Ohlins .... so did Rossi possibly get the new fork in Bruno that Stoner got in testing in Jerez and said made him 0.5 seconds quicker. It would be in Yamahas favour to pressure Ohlins not to release "the latest" to other teams until they negotiate a new years contract .... but would they do that? or would Rossi get these first too?
Yam is stuck in a no man's land as far as engine is concerned. They have the widest 4 cylinder configuration you can choose and they don't have pneumatics.
I-4's need countershafts and such to keep them balanced so they rob gas and power. The only way to make them narrower is to increase the stroke which raises piston velocity and tears the engine to shreds, or they can make the distance between cylinders less which creates heat dissipation and reliability issues as well. So if you increase the stroke you lose a bit of power usually, but you've improved your already abysmal drag coefficient.
Kwaky don't have this problem because they have pneumatics and they can ratchet up the power and still keep the engine jammed against the front wheel for tractability. I know drag = bad fuel consumption but somehow Kawasaki seem to be close to the necessary top speeds despite running an I-4.
Honda can probably get away without pneumatics because V-4s make better power, especially L-4's like the Duc, but Yamaha doesn't really have a choice imo, unless they can think of something somewhat unconventional?
I dunno, I'm no expert but I know their situation is not good.
I-4's need countershafts and such to keep them balanced so they rob gas and power. The only way to make them narrower is to increase the stroke which raises piston velocity and tears the engine to shreds, or they can make the distance between cylinders less which creates heat dissipation and reliability issues as well. So if you increase the stroke you lose a bit of power usually, but you've improved your already abysmal drag coefficient.
Kwaky don't have this problem because they have pneumatics and they can ratchet up the power and still keep the engine jammed against the front wheel for tractability. I know drag = bad fuel consumption but somehow Kawasaki seem to be close to the necessary top speeds despite running an I-4.
Honda can probably get away without pneumatics because V-4s make better power, especially L-4's like the Duc, but Yamaha doesn't really have a choice imo, unless they can think of something somewhat unconventional?
I dunno, I'm no expert but I know their situation is not good.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mylexicon @ Dec 8 2007, 08:45 PM) [snapback]103817[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Yam is stuck in a no man's land as far as engine is concerned. They have the widest 4 cylinder configuration you can choose and they don't have pneumatics.
I-4's need countershafts and such to keep them balanced so they rob gas and power. The only way to make them narrower is to increase the stroke which raises piston velocity and tears the engine to shreds, or they can make the distance between cylinders less which creates heat dissipation and reliability issues as well. So if you increase the stroke you lose a bit of power usually, but you've improved your already abysmal drag coefficient.
Kwaky don't have this problem because they have pneumatics and they can ratchet up the power and still keep the engine jammed against the front wheel for tractability. I know drag = bad fuel consumption but somehow Kawasaki seem to be close to the necessary top speeds despite running an I-4.
Honda can probably get away without pneumatics because V-4s make better power, especially L-4's like the Duc, but Yamaha doesn't really have a choice imo, unless they can think of something somewhat unconventional?
I dunno, I'm no expert but I know their situation is not good.
The Japanese guy at Yamaha is an intelligent bloke, i think he keeps the configuration because its traditionally yamaha.
The 800s are still some way off the top speeds the 990 yamaha was capable off. I'm sure theres still other ways.
Yam is stuck in a no man's land as far as engine is concerned. They have the widest 4 cylinder configuration you can choose and they don't have pneumatics.
I-4's need countershafts and such to keep them balanced so they rob gas and power. The only way to make them narrower is to increase the stroke which raises piston velocity and tears the engine to shreds, or they can make the distance between cylinders less which creates heat dissipation and reliability issues as well. So if you increase the stroke you lose a bit of power usually, but you've improved your already abysmal drag coefficient.
Kwaky don't have this problem because they have pneumatics and they can ratchet up the power and still keep the engine jammed against the front wheel for tractability. I know drag = bad fuel consumption but somehow Kawasaki seem to be close to the necessary top speeds despite running an I-4.
Honda can probably get away without pneumatics because V-4s make better power, especially L-4's like the Duc, but Yamaha doesn't really have a choice imo, unless they can think of something somewhat unconventional?
I dunno, I'm no expert but I know their situation is not good.
The Japanese guy at Yamaha is an intelligent bloke, i think he keeps the configuration because its traditionally yamaha.
The 800s are still some way off the top speeds the 990 yamaha was capable off. I'm sure theres still other ways.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Dec 9 2007, 12:16 AM) [snapback]103839[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
The Japanese guy at Yamaha is an intelligent bloke, i think he keeps the configuration because its traditionally yamaha.
The 800s are still some way off the top speeds the 990 yamaha was capable off. I'm sure theres still other ways.
So you are saying that staying with the traditional IL configuration is the intelligent thing to do becuase it is tradition?
Sorry, but i fail to see the intelligence
The Japanese guy at Yamaha is an intelligent bloke, i think he keeps the configuration because its traditionally yamaha.
The 800s are still some way off the top speeds the 990 yamaha was capable off. I'm sure theres still other ways.
So you are saying that staying with the traditional IL configuration is the intelligent thing to do becuase it is tradition?
Sorry, but i fail to see the intelligence
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Dec 8 2007, 07:16 PM) [snapback]103839[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
The Japanese guy at Yamaha is an intelligent bloke, i think he keeps the configuration because its traditionally yamaha.
funny yamaha did'nt think that way when they were runnin 500 2strokes...... just make a damn v4 already!
The Japanese guy at Yamaha is an intelligent bloke, i think he keeps the configuration because its traditionally yamaha.
funny yamaha did'nt think that way when they were runnin 500 2strokes...... just make a damn v4 already!
I don't think the power developed by a V4 or inline 4 will be much different. But, the Vs are narrower giving their bikes better cornering clearance and less wind resistance.
As to pneumatic valves, honda laready use them in the F1 engines. As long as they have the chasis right (and the riders have admitted that hte new chasis is better) they can develop the engine on the bench during the off season.
Ducati set the standard this year -- the but the bike. per se, did not improve by much during the year. Honda has made tremendous progress. Yamaha's progress, if any, was clouded by engine blow ups and tire fiascos.
I think next year will be a crap shoot just like this year was.
As to pneumatic valves, honda laready use them in the F1 engines. As long as they have the chasis right (and the riders have admitted that hte new chasis is better) they can develop the engine on the bench during the off season.
Ducati set the standard this year -- the but the bike. per se, did not improve by much during the year. Honda has made tremendous progress. Yamaha's progress, if any, was clouded by engine blow ups and tire fiascos.
I think next year will be a crap shoot just like this year was.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(crvlvr @ Dec 10 2007, 10:19 PM) [snapback]103979[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Ducati set the standard this year -- the but the bike. per se, did not improve by much during the year. Honda has made tremendous progress. Yamaha's progress, if any, was clouded by engine blow ups and tire fiascos.
I think next year will be a crap shoot just like this year was.
I think ducati improved the handling of their bike during the year, the engine not much. As you say honda improved both the engine and the handling a lot, and will continue to throw money at the bike to an extent that ducati, or even yamaha, can't match.
I did think the GP08 looked promising in stoner's hands before he binned it. Yamaha look like they will be relying on their lead rider's talent, perhaps a not entirely hopeless prospect; valentino has said he can cope with a bad bike on good tyres but not the reverse.
Ducati set the standard this year -- the but the bike. per se, did not improve by much during the year. Honda has made tremendous progress. Yamaha's progress, if any, was clouded by engine blow ups and tire fiascos.
I think next year will be a crap shoot just like this year was.
I think ducati improved the handling of their bike during the year, the engine not much. As you say honda improved both the engine and the handling a lot, and will continue to throw money at the bike to an extent that ducati, or even yamaha, can't match.
I did think the GP08 looked promising in stoner's hands before he binned it. Yamaha look like they will be relying on their lead rider's talent, perhaps a not entirely hopeless prospect; valentino has said he can cope with a bad bike on good tyres but not the reverse.
I can hardly wait to see what Suzuki has for next spring. They have the valve train and engine configuration all figured out. A bit more power and they will have one of the best machines on the grid. The Ducati is an animal that only Stoner has been able to master. Yamaha will come with a good engine and so will Honda. Don't forget who the fastest pair was last test.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(michaelm @ Dec 11 2007, 03:22 AM) [snapback]103985[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Yamaha look like they will be relying on their lead rider's talent, perhaps a not entirely hopeless prospect; valentino has said he can cope with a bad bike on good tyres but not the reverse.
Think you nailed it right there. It seems to me that Yamaha seems to think that it´s all good enough since they have Rossi and he can make anything work. It´s almost like they feel that any short comings in the bike will simply be made up for by having Rossi at the wheel. Of course he´s good but is only human so they better start working harder.
Yamaha look like they will be relying on their lead rider's talent, perhaps a not entirely hopeless prospect; valentino has said he can cope with a bad bike on good tyres but not the reverse.
Think you nailed it right there. It seems to me that Yamaha seems to think that it´s all good enough since they have Rossi and he can make anything work. It´s almost like they feel that any short comings in the bike will simply be made up for by having Rossi at the wheel. Of course he´s good but is only human so they better start working harder.
