Yamaha working on new engine!

Interesting.
Some seems to think that the power difference is a lot smaller, but it isn't, and it's questionable if they can get the current machine to perform as well as they want within the new petrol limit.
I think it's the right thing to do. We can't expect Ducati to stand still and wait for the others, they also have their improvements to do.

In best case will match others big bang like Kawasaki current one.

I don't think Yamaha have the substantial eletronics/software to keep a eager screamer, at least in this season.

If so, Ducati have already another top speed fairing to respond.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 3 2007, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting.
Some seems to think that the power difference is a lot smaller, but it isn't, and it's questionable if they can get the current machine to perform as well as they want within the new petrol limit.
I think it's the right thing to do. We can't expect Ducati to stand still and wait for the others, they also have their improvements to do.
interesting, if there going for pneumatic valves thats to get a higher rev ceiling, so the current yam must be doing well on the 21 liters of fuel aloud.
ducati,your screwed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 3 2007, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting.
Some seems to think that the power difference is a lot smaller, but it isn't,

I think some think the power difference is bigger than it is because of what the first few races were like, but it isn't. Yamaha have definately closed the gap and now the difference isn't that big. I would say the Ducati has better top end, but this is assisted a lot by the fairings to make the power difference appear huge. It can also be seen that the Yamaha accelerates very fast out of corners and on small straights, so overall their disadvantage is small.

The Honda is pretty fast now, and i think only slower on top speed because if the tiny fairings it has, with a better chassis it could become the best bike very quickly. I remain faithful that Honda are the best, and their bike will be fixed soon. Overall i think it is important that Yamaha do keep moving forward, but all teams have to in order to stay competitive and some even have to catch up.

I have to agree with Tom about Honda. When they make an improvement, it shows. Like both Hayden and Pedrosa jumping to the front at Assen. Personally, I think Ducati's days are numbered. The only thing they will have going for them will be the Bridgestone tires, if it continues to out perform the Michelins.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 3 2007, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think some think the power difference is bigger than it is because of what the first few races were like, but it isn't. Yamaha have definately closed the gap and now the difference isn't that big. I would say the Ducati has better top end, but this is assisted a lot by the fairings to make the power difference appear huge. It can also be seen that the Yamaha accelerates very fast out of corners and on small straights, so overall their disadvantage is small.
I think that what you try to express is that the yamaha has excellent traction, as seen very well at difficult exits like the Strubben hairpin at assen and occationatly at the exit to the main straight, and true, that might have changed slightly, or at least they've been spot on with the setup. Allthough similar performance showed in Shanghai at the exit of the back straight. We talk about 220bhp monsters at 150kg. They don't need a fraction of that to do those exits, so that got only slightly about power to do, and not the amount, only the throttle response and a decent power delivery.

The top speed of the duc were not really the issue in the first races, the acceleration were, but it only showed when straight up or on very open turns, and it still does. It's just masked by the yamaha's faster exit and later braking and short straights. The accelleration is not so much depending on aerodynamics before they reach very high speeds, at least not in the magnitude we've seen from the Ducati.

At assen we could se how Rossi pulled away when in front, he was pulling just as hard when behind Stoner, and with exits like that and brakes like that a pass on the main straight on anything similar in acceleration would have been a walk in the park for someone like Rossi, still it never happened. Stoner had a comfortable lead into turn 1 every time.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The Honda is pretty fast now, and i think only slower on top speed because if the tiny fairings it has, with a better chassis it could become the best bike very quickly. I remain faithful that Honda are the best, and their bike will be fixed soon.

True, the factory honda has shown some real performance gains. First the engine and now the new chassi, obviously improving their performance. Top speed difference between gresini and repsol are quite noticable now.

Ducati have the most innovative system i've seen this is their advantage and now Yamaha are gonna copy it. Ducati can't respond they are a small team and don't have as much money as Honda and Yamaha.

I would like the Yamaha to be no more than 5km down, wouldn't be a problem for Rossi.

who's copying ducati and what are they copying? pneumatic valves? surely not, aprilia was using them before ducati was even in motogp.

the yamaha does not accelerate faster out of the corners than the duc. that's quite obvious. the reason rossi was able to pass stoner at assen was that he lined up the pass 3 corners before because assen has a lot of "rolling" corners that aren't "real" corners. if you go back and watch the race, you can see that he's on the gas way sooner than stoner and carrying much more speed through the "easy" corners which has a lot to do with the yamaha's agility, not it's torque. the ducati still has way more grunt as was visually apparent everytime there was a true corner (not a rolling easy "corner" at assen) that they both exited at the same time.

ot; but if you go to the BBC website, there's a lengthy interview with Rossi where he says THE major difference with the 800s is electronics. he says the reduction in capacity and HP is negligible and that a huge leap has been made in engine mappings between '06 and '07. it's a free viewing so you should all check it out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jul 3 2007, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ducati have the most innovative system i've seen this is their advantage and now Yamaha are gonna copy it. Ducati can't respond they are a small team and don't have as much money as Honda and Yamaha.

I would like the Yamaha to be no more than 5km down, wouldn't be a problem for Rossi.
Yamaha is not going to "copy" anything. Ducati uses their own desmo system, while Yamaha will use pneumatics.

IIRC up to today

Yamaha:
Inline 4, big bang, conventional springs (pneumatic soon)

Kawasaki
Inline 4, big bang, conventional springs (pneumatic soon)

Advantages:
Good traction due to big bang configuration, inline engine = short engine means it has a longer swingarm and better stability and traction. When new engine with pneumatic valve

Disadvantages:
Due to the inline configuration the bike is wide therefore it's not aerodinamically as efficient = lower top speed. Longer crankshaft than V engines, means for the same materials available it has to be stronger therefore heavier.

Ducati:
V4, screamer (big bang tested by Capi in Montmeló unsuccesfully), Desmodromic valve management

Suzuki:
V4, big bang?, pneumatic valves

Honda:
V4, big bang, conventional springs

all the V4 engines are more compact than the inline 4, therefore slimmer bike which means better aero = top speed.

Desmo and pneumatic both allow higher revs than springs. Disadvantage for Honda.

The even firing (screamer) configuration gives more top end power than the uneven firing (big bang) the rest of competitors use, but on the other hand should give worse traction (acceleration), the desmosedici doesn't seem to have a problem with this, I bet Magneti Marelli have a lot to do with it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Jul 4 2007, 04:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have to agree with Tom about Honda. When they make an improvement, it shows. Like both Hayden and Pedrosa jumping to the front at Assen. Personally, I think Ducati's days are numbered. The only thing they will have going for them will be the Bridgestone tires, if it continues to out perform the Michelins.

Its easier to see an improvement when Hayden finishes outside the top ten then finally gets a podium. Pedrosa has been consistently quick in the dry since Mugello. Honda are now approaching the level of Ducati and Yamaha and any improvements they've made are incremental. Honda haven't suddenly improved, Hayden now has the same chassis as Pedrosa and is performing much better.

I don't think Ducati's days are numbered at all. It's not like the are sitting around at Bologna eating pasta, sipping vino, taking it easy. Same for Yamaha (except for the pasta). If anything I would say Ducati are pushing harder than ever to improve and keep the bike at the top of the pile, Casey's talked about development of a new fairing, Yamaha are developing a new engine. Honda seem to be concerned about traction and finding a base chassis, they haven't begun to address the lack of power.

Bridgestone have a very clear advantage in wet conditions. In the dry I would consider both manufacturers equal. Qatar, Jerez, China, Mugello, Catalunya and Assen were all competitive rounds for Michelin. If it's wet Rossi will .... himself, in dry conditions he'll have every confidence he can win.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teomolca @ Jul 4 2007, 09:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Kawasaki
Inline 4, big bang, conventional springs (pneumatic soon)

Sorry to correct you Teo, but it was confirmed on Eurosport that Kawa have been using Pneumatic valves since their 800 project started, that's why they show such a large speed advantage over the Yamahas.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jul 4 2007, 01:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ducati have the most innovative system i've seen this is their advantage and now Yamaha are gonna copy it. Ducati can't respond they are a small team and don't have as much money as Honda and Yamaha.

I would like the Yamaha to be no more than 5km down, wouldn't be a problem for Rossi.

Desmo valves are not very inovative. Taken over from others Ducati introduced this to motorbike engines and has stayed with it for decades. AFAIK they are the only ones using the desmo system on any engine, and allthough a guttsy move to bring it with them to GP, it got little inovation in it, but Ducati got decades of refining it's workings and it does have som inherited advantages over other systems, and thats why they use it, with success I might add.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Waqar 46 @ Jul 4 2007, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If Rossi was on a Ducati he would kick Stoner's .... He would own everyone!!
have faith mate, he will kick everybody's ... on the yam.

Yamaha have had pneumatic valves BUT not for the bikes. The first race role out for yamaha was the engine in the Yamaha TWR F1 car, but of course at the time GP500 was running 2 strokes so no point in designing it for bikes. All the teams will need to go to pneumatic valves to get the higher Rev engine.
Give it another few years and it will be on your WSB's.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 4 2007, 11:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Desmo valves are not very inovative. Taken over from others Ducati introduced this to motorbike engines and has stayed with it for decades. AFAIK they are the only ones using the desmo system on any engine, and allthough a guttsy move to bring it with them to GP, it got little inovation in it, but Ducati got decades of refining it's workings and it does have som inherited advantages over other systems, and thats why they use it, with success I might add.

So true,

If you are interested Mercedes was the first to produce engines with desmo valves on the 1954 W196 Grand Prix car - Then into the SL500. I believe Ducati first used it in 1956 125cc racer. Lets be honest not much difference in the time scales.

http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/merc196.htm