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wsbk rd2 portimao

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Apr 3 2010, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It was just the Japanese manufacturers, I could buy. But with Ducati and Aprilia involved, it's about as likely as peace breaking out in the middle east on the same day that Kim Jong-Il announces elections to be held in North Korea, to be organized by the UN. Aprilia are already cheating their way through WSBK, so the likelihood of them abiding by a secret MSMA agreement is about as close to zero as you can get.

Thanks for that. I won't ask for specifics... but as a fan of racing since the late '70s
and a former club racer; my gut has said same for a while now.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Apr 5 2010, 11:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I know that Barry Veneman's Suzuki made around 140hp. I spoke to Marc Hoegee (the manager and tuner), and he said he could have got more from the engine with more money and time, but the budgets of Ten Kate and Parkalgar are at least twice what the Suzuki team's was. So some 7% more HP costs 100% more money.

And you're right about cost not being an effective performance control. In fact, I don't think anything is an effective performance control. That's what engineers do, find ways to go faster with what they're given.

I think the cost curve is specific to WSS (assuming WSBK is not rev-limited). The 4-cylinder engines all have the same bore and stroke so the rev-limits are basically the same for everyone. Imo, when he says he needs double the budget to get the last 10hp, he means he needs dozens of engines, hundreds of man hours, and hundreds of machine hours to develop the port, polish, and cylinder head grinding that is required to raise mean effective pressure in the engine. He might need to do some valve spring work and cam work as well. Then he's gotta bench test everything and find out what works. Suzuki would also probably have to commit to make a few changes to the stock machine based upon the findings of the WSS team so that the stock bike is more compatible with WSS modifications. I guess Suzuki decided it wasn't worth it.

In WSBK, things should be a lot cheaper b/c some teams (BMW, Aprilia, Yamaha) can simply run higher revs (allegedly) if they are incapable of maximizing mean effective pressure.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Apr 5 2010, 04:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thanks for that. I won't ask for specifics... but as a fan of racing since the late '70s
and a former club racer; my gut has said same for a while now.
.... that, i want specifics.
<
Besides the gear driven cam vs chain driven,what other shenanigans has Aprilia been up to. From what i have read,the gear driven cam motor was technically legal, on of those gray areas that will be fixed in the rule book.
 
And this just in today, not only was it not illegal. they are free to use it starting at Miller

Aprilia has gotten permission to use their new gear driven camshaft motor on their RSV4 Factory.

The SBK Commission has finally ruled on it’s use, after rival manufacturers questioned it’s legality based on technical rule number 2.4.8, when Aprilia was seen using it during free practice at Phillip Island, but the gear driven camshaft motor was not used during the races in the first two rounds.

The Commission has ruled in favour of Aprilia explaining that the rule only prohibits changing the valve control regardless of which type of gear control is used and in theory, Max Biaggi and Leon Camier would be allowed to use the gear driven cam motor starting from next race weekend at Valencia, but after futher consultations between manufacturers and teams, Aprilia will have to hold off until after the 7th round (Miller Motorsport round May, 31st) before officially using it.

Rival manufacturers have also insisted and obtained that the Aprilia engines undergo official technical checks after each single race, no matter where Biaggi and Camier finish in each round.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 5 2010, 05:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And this just in today, not only was it not illegal. they are free to use it starting at Miller

Aprilia has gotten permission to use their new gear driven camshaft motor on their RSV4 Factory.

The SBK Commission has finally ruled on it’s use, after rival manufacturers questioned it’s legality based on technical rule number 2.4.8, when Aprilia was seen using it during free practice at Phillip Island, but the gear driven camshaft motor was not used during the races in the first two rounds.

The Commission has ruled in favour of Aprilia explaining that the rule only prohibits changing the valve control regardless of which type of gear control is used and in theory, Max Biaggi and Leon Camier would be allowed to use the gear driven cam motor starting from next race weekend at Valencia, but after futher consultations between manufacturers and teams, Aprilia will have to hold off until after the 7th round (Miller Motorsport round May, 31st) before officially using it.

Rival manufacturers have also insisted and obtained that the Aprilia engines undergo official technical checks after each single race, no matter where Biaggi and Camier finish in each round.

The SBK commission don't care b/c gear driven cams aren't going to do anything substantial for performance.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 5 2010, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The SBK commission don't care b/c gear driven cams aren't going to do anything substantial for performance.
Maybe,maybe not, but it certainly ..... with the other teams heads. Look at that last sentence.

Rival manufacturers have also insisted and obtained that the Aprilia engines undergo official technical checks after each single race, no matter where Biaggi and Camier finish in each round.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 5 2010, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe,maybe not, but it certainly ..... with the other teams heads. Look at that last sentence.

Rival manufacturers have also insisted and obtained that the Aprilia engines undergo official technical checks after each single race, no matter where Biaggi and Camier finish in each round.

Yeah, it definitely screws with the competition, and it is a pretty marginal modification. Aprilia say they want it b/c it will double the engine life. Sounds believable to me.

I really doubt the bike was legally homologated in the first place so getting worked up about a cam gear seems like a waste of time.
<
 
Is it me or do we get way better threads on Superbike boards? I think its because its a Rossi-Mindless/Stoner-Hater free zone. Kropo, continue elevating our forum please.
 
No, its not your imagination Jum!!! SBK threads do not degenerate into name calling... And yes, I have also been enjoying Krop's input. Although I'm neither a Rossi bopper nor beater I am curious if MGPs polarity will retire with the GOAT...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 6 2010, 12:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the cost curve is specific to WSS (assuming WSBK is not rev-limited). The 4-cylinder engines all have the same bore and stroke so the rev-limits are basically the same for everyone. Imo, when he says he needs double the budget to get the last 10hp, he means he needs dozens of engines, hundreds of man hours, and hundreds of machine hours to develop the port, polish, and cylinder head grinding that is required to raise mean effective pressure in the engine. He might need to do some valve spring work and cam work as well. Then he's gotta bench test everything and find out what works. Suzuki would also probably have to commit to make a few changes to the stock machine based upon the findings of the WSS team so that the stock bike is more compatible with WSS modifications. I guess Suzuki decided it wasn't worth it.

In WSBK, things should be a lot cheaper b/c some teams (BMW, Aprilia, Yamaha) can simply run higher revs (allegedly) if they are incapable of maximizing mean effective pressure.

You're just about right. He said that the money was basically in dyno time and development, and in engine rebuilds. Parkalgar and Ten Kate basically just throw a couple of engines at a weekend, then rebuild them afterwards. Suzuki didn't do that.

And the reason the Suzuki WSS team was so badly funded is because the money went to the MotoGP team. What a success that's been ...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 6 2010, 04:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I really doubt the bike was legally homologated in the first place so getting worked up about a cam gear seems like a waste of time.
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I had similar thoughts about the FP1, although unlike the Foggy debacle, the Aprilia appears to be a race winning package.

The cam gear mod is apparently marketed as a race kit for the road bike. It's hard to see how this would substantially improve performance, but certainly as someone mentioned earlier, the durability factor is the main consideration here. It won't harm the straight line speed, which is already formidable.
 
Okay, I'm just going to post the whole theory regardless of how unrefined or impossible it may seem. Criticism is the only way to develop any theory. Without bouncing ideas off of people during this thread, I never would have thought to look at the BSB Evo regulations, and I certainly wouldn't have found explicit mention of a homologated rev-limit (though the rulebook doesn't indicate who actually homologates the rev limit).

Here we go:

1. WSBK is rev limited via homologation. It was instituted by the FIM and MSMA in 2004 after the Flamminis eliminated air restrictors. The Flaminis don't care about the rev limit b/c performance controls don't appear in the rule book, and the manufacturers are still required to design prototype engine internals. The FIM are happy about rev limits b/c they have to homologate circuits so they wanted to control horsepower in the name of safety. The MSMA are reasonably happy b/c they couldn't afford a rev-war in WSBK and MotoGP, and they certainly didn't want 500 unit homologation specials threatening the performance of MotoGP bikes.

2. The rev limit moves. It is a sliding scale that progresses at 100rpm per season (2hp), though I don't know how often the rev-ceiling is changed (200rpm every 2yrs, 300rpm every 3 years, etc). The rev limit increase incrementally to prevent performance stagnation and to create an orderly forward progression for horsepower and bore-stroke ratio. I believe the rev limit started at 12,500rpm (200hp) in 2004 and it will run until 2024 (when the Flamminis commercial lease expires, I believe) when the bikes will have 14,500rpm (235hp). The 1000cc superbikes will probably never be more powerful than GP bikes.

This sliding rev limit and the nominal starting values and ending values are simply my gut feeling, but I think they are corroborated by the top speed data and the bore/stroke dimensions of the bikes. Since 2005 nearly all manufacturers have added at least 1mm of bore to their bikes.

Suzuki GSXR1000 - 73.4mm x 59mm -----> 74.5mm x 57.3
Honda CBR1000RR - 75mm x 56.5mm -----> 76mm x 55.1mm
Yamaha R1 - 77mm x 53.6mm -----> 78mm x 52.2mm
Ducati 999R & 1198 - 104mm x 58.8mm -----> 106mm x 68mm
Kawasaki ZX10R - unchanged at 76mm x 55.1mm

I think Suzuki run as high a stroke number as possible so they can maximize the spread of power (same for the 999R). The other manufacturers run slightly above 74.5mm bore b/c they want more valve surface area so they can reach max compression more easily. BMW have probably chosen 80mm b/c they want to maximize acceleration from a short stroke engine. Basically, the manufacturers only need to get to 78mm (1.5 bore/stroke) b/c they should be able to just reach the 14,500rpm maximum.

3. The Ducati is not rev-limited anymore. Maintaining a sliding rev-limit over multiple capacities is a nightmare so the Ducati has had it's horsepower capped by air restrictors. The performance indexing is used to match the bike to the rest of the field, but if you read the rules it seems pretty clear that the restrictors will eventually be moved to 52mm and ultimately eliminated. The bike clearly makes ample power so verbage suggesting that performance controls will be dropped can only indicate that the rev-limit is indeed moving.
 
Very quickly, as I'm busy. Love the theory, it's very well thought out. Which is the problem with it, but that's another thing.

You're getting hung up on homologated rev limits and BSB. Bikes are presented to the FIM for homologation. They have lights, indicators, pillion seats, fairings, etc, all of which are homologated. They also have a red line. This is the homologated rev limit. The way I see it, though, is that the rev limit is de facto, not de jure. The bikes are homologated to rev to X, but that doesn't mean they're not allowed to rev higher than X. In that respect, they're the same as indicators, in that the indicator is homologated, but not required for racing. You are assuming that the homologation is more like the fairing or the exhausts, which are supposed to bear a passing resemblance to the homologated item. I do not believe this is the case.

I shall ask Noyes when I see him tomorrow, and I shall make some enquiries in the WSBK paddock at Assen in two weeks' time.

Edited to add: Expecting the Japanese and Italian contingents to respect an unwritten rule is as likely as Osama Bin Laden and Jerry Falwell agreeing on who really is the One True God. Even if they went along just to shut the other party up, they'd completely disregard the agreement once they left the bargaining table.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 5 2010, 11:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%Is it me or do we get way better threads on Superbike boards? I think its because its a Rossi-Mindless/Stoner-Hater free zone. Kropo, continue elevating our forum please.
refreshing.... ain't it...
<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 6 2010, 05:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Is it me or do we get way better threads on Superbike boards? I think its because its a Rossi-Mindless/Stoner-Hater free zone. Kropo, continue elevating our forum please.

It ain't me, it's because the fanbois aren't here. Or if they are, this is not a fight they have a dog in.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Apr 7 2010, 06:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Very quickly, as I'm busy. Love the theory, it's very well thought out. Which is the problem with it, but that's another thing.

You're getting hung up on homologated rev limits and BSB. Bikes are presented to the FIM for homologation. They have lights, indicators, pillion seats, fairings, etc, all of which are homologated. They also have a red line. This is the homologated rev limit. The way I see it, though, is that the rev limit is de facto, not de jure. The bikes are homologated to rev to X, but that doesn't mean they're not allowed to rev higher than X. In that respect, they're the same as indicators, in that the indicator is homologated, but not required for racing. You are assuming that the homologation is more like the fairing or the exhausts, which are supposed to bear a passing resemblance to the homologated item. I do not believe this is the case.

I shall ask Noyes when I see him tomorrow, and I shall make some enquiries in the WSBK paddock at Assen in two weeks' time.

Edited to add: Expecting the Japanese and Italian contingents to respect an unwritten rule is as likely as Osama Bin Laden and Jerry Falwell agreeing on who really is the One True God. Even if they went along just to shut the other party up, they'd completely disregard the agreement once they left the bargaining table.

If the rev limit is de facto, then WSBK definitely has no rev limit. However, if the rev limit is de facto, why homologate it? Homologation is de jure by nature, imo.

If the rev limit is de jure, then WSBK definitely has a rev limit. However, we have no proof that the FIM homologate all bikes at one universal rev limit (as I'm claiming). We have to draw that conclusion from circumstantial evidence like top speeds and acceleration g-force.

The MSMA agreement was my weak first attempt at explaining how the MSMA could impose a rev limit. I think you're right that the MSMA could never maintain a side agreement, and that's why a rev limit (if it is de jure) must be enforced by the FIM. Homologated components cannot be changed unless otherwise stated in the rulebook. Rev-limits are kind of an interesting thing to homologate b/c it isn't a physical component, although, engine dimensions like bore, stroke, and capacity are not really tangible parts either, yet they cannot be modified.

It's very hard to say. I simply find the homogenized straightline performance a bit unbelievable given the technical variety of the engines since 2009. The Aprilia, Yamaha, and BMW should have visible acceleration and top speed advantage on the front straight at least. Furthermore, Ducati are horsepower limited via air restriction. I find it hard to believe that Ducati would accept a horsepower limit unless the other manufacturers were also capped by some performance control. I find it hard to believe that the backmarking factories would ever allow the Ducati to be performance indexed to the front runners if the bikes weren't theoretically equalized.

I really don't know which is harder to believe. A homologated rev limit that has never leaked out in any media, or racing bikes that all go the same speed and produce at least 50hp less than what a production 1000cc engine is theoretically capable of.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 7 2010, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>BMW should have visible acceleration and top speed advantage on the front straight at least.

I thought that they did in Portimao. Corsser looked to have a visible speed advantage down the straight. At least in the first few laps of the race. I guess the BMW has a problem with sustainability.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 7 2010, 01:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If the rev limit is de facto, then WSBK definitely has no rev limit. However, if the rev limit is de facto, why homologate it? Homologation is de jure by nature, imo.

If the rev limit is de jure, then WSBK definitely has a rev limit. However, we have no proof that the FIM homologate all bikes at one universal rev limit (as I'm claiming). We have to draw that conclusion from circumstantial evidence like top speeds and acceleration g-force.

The MSMA agreement was my weak first attempt at explaining how the MSMA could impose a rev limit. I think you're right that the MSMA could never maintain a side agreement, and that's why a rev limit (if it is de jure) must be enforced by the FIM. Homologated components cannot be changed unless otherwise stated in the rulebook. Rev-limits are kind of an interesting thing to homologate b/c it isn't a physical component, although, engine dimensions like bore, stroke, and capacity are not really tangible parts either, yet they cannot be modified.

It's very hard to say. I simply find the homogenized straightline performance a bit unbelievable given the technical variety of the engines since 2009. The Aprilia, Yamaha, and BMW should have visible acceleration and top speed advantage on the front straight at least. Furthermore, Ducati are horsepower limited via air restriction. I find it hard to believe that Ducati would accept a horsepower limit unless the other manufacturers were also capped by some performance control. I find it hard to believe that the backmarking factories would ever allow the Ducati to be performance indexed to the front runners if the bikes weren't theoretically equalized.

I really don't know which is harder to believe. A homologated rev limit that has never leaked out in any media, or racing bikes that all go the same speed and produce at least 50hp less than what a production 1000cc engine is theoretically capable of.
Your still getting hung up on top speed in your equations. These bikes have a much faster top speed potential than you will ever see on a track. The top speeds that each bike attains on a track are due to getting out of the corner, gearing, and aero.Using it in your equation, is for the most part, meaningless.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 7 2010, 10:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your still getting hung up on top speed in your equations. These bikes have a much faster top speed potential than you will ever see on a track. The top speeds that each bike attains on a track are due to getting out of the corner, gearing, and aero.Using it in your equation, is for the most part, meaningless.
Hmmm, even at a circuit like Monza, or PI down the Gardner straight, I'd have to say I agree with you
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 6 2010, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Is it me or do we get way better threads on Superbike boards? I think its because its a Rossi-Mindless/Stoner-Hater free zone. Kropo, continue elevating our forum please.
Easy fix. just do what I do. If a thread has the name Rossi or Stoner in the title than don't bother reading it until you see it has reached at least 10 pages. At that point you know the thread has been reduced to a flame war and at that point it's at least a humorous thread.
 

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