WSBK Monza 2012

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cliché guevara said:
effenbert are taking this a bit far, no hospitality for donington. let me rephrase that, the big beer sponsor decides to not show up at the english round?
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Your shitting me!!!

Just spent the most of the day getting my camping gear cleaned and ready for the first jolly of the season and Guinters aint gonna be there??

Please tell me that aint gonna be the case.

Was originally going for Hopper n Zuki so that's a double fcuk up for me!

Fcuk just spent a fortune on a new lense too.

Aaaargh where's my fcuking woods!
 
Panic over it's just the hospitality not the team.
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I really should learn to read the thread before butting in.
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sewarion said:
Jumkie, would you please elaborate on where exactly there is a lack of runoff? Cliché and I talked were discussing the exit at Ascari (the third, and fastest, chicane). But 'commentators mention' seems a bit vague. As I stated above, the Ascari situation needs to be addressed, but that's a different matter than deeming the whole track a death trap as a general statement.



Race one has been cancelled because of tire safety, not track safety. And the bizarre race two thing was triggered by one mid-pack rider/qualifier, and those behind got on the train. Those ahead, which means the complete first row, didn't do a thing - They did not see anyone who they thought they must follow and saw no reasons for acting on their own behalf. The reason why the riders refused to start was, again, fear of rain. If it had started to rain, they had been approaching the wet on slicks like in race one, the result of which we saw some hours earlier. So I can understand their concerns, but it made everything worse: The race was still started, albeit even later. It was a dry race which was abandoned mid-way. Had they started earlier, they could have finished easily in the dry.



So, of course, it's always easier to judge afterwards. But what could we see? Riders that after two sighting laps suddenly realized that after three days of practice, one canned race, and two warm up laps suddenly realized that this track might not be safe enough to race on? Riders that delayed the start because they feared that rain might come? Riders that still started the race later, when the arrival of the anticipated rain would be much closer? It was all just bizarre, and it all turned into a farce.



Considering all that above, I think it is truly appropriate to lead a discussion about whether Monza is a safe place to ride. But I think that this discussion should be led seperately from discussing the absolutely ridiculous situation as far as Pirelli as a tire supplier is concerned. And I still believe that it was the latter situation that led to the common insecurity among the riders that we could witness after the abandoned (first) start of race two.
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What is there to elaborate on? Would you like to go into a corner by corner analysis of the track where you and I discuss the relative safety of the track? The reining champion of the series stated that after two sighting laps, "most" of the riders felt it was too "dangerous" to re-start in mixed conditions, what could you and I possibly contribute to this assessment? Of what relevance are the tires when you are sitting on the grid with slicks in conditions that if you go down, the poor run off means you might be carted off in a body bag? The point is, that under the conditions the track, let me say that again, 'the track' became too dangerous. Perhaps you were not aware, but a speed record was achieved at Monza this event. Speed is associated with risk for most people. This being Monza, its a track that is known more for its straights than its curves, which has armco only feet from the tarmac separated by slippery grass (which would have been wet). If you happen to have the race recorded, feel free to watch it again and pay special attention to the commentators, as you might have missed them talking about the run off situation.



sewarion said:
Ok, I retract the 'loser'. But while you call him a fool, I would rather call him an ...... So alright, he always has been on equipment that wasn't as good as that of others. It's easy to name a few dozen other riders who were/are in teh same situation without regularly binning it. So he's got to take the blame on that, at least a good portion of it. And it's one thing if you do it when you are young or a rookie. Hopper simply never matured it seems. And that's the difference. And your point of taking a piece of .... to the limit and above and, as a result, to crash, might give the whole thing a somewhat heroic touch. But this is surely not applicable when you look at the PI testing crash. On a new bike, while testing, you don't even think about the limit on lap 4, dammit! The fact that he is blessed with a truckload of bad luck probably explains a lot of his injuries, but he simply fell off too many times as one could find any reasonable explanation for his many crashes.
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I suspect you are blaming Hopkin's crash for the stoppages in this weekends events. While you are calling him and ....., which you have the right to do, I would direct you to watch him just months ago in last year's BSB series.
 
Jumkie said:
[...]
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Man, no offense.



I was watching the race - unfortunately - on German Eurosport, and while safety and runoff surely have been discussed, I'm pretty sure you and I cannot refer to the same commentary. On page 2, I posted a link to the WSS race and to even made a point about safety, barriers, and airfence. And for sure I find that it's an issue worth debating. But not on the terms of 'the commentary mentioned' and 'the [whole] track is a death trap. You are naming wet grass and armco. What I see, however, is mainly gravel traps and airfence that covers the armco. That's why I asked you to be a bit more precise what section of the track you are referring to, because I cannot see any runoff area outside a corner that consists solely of grass and leads into unprotected armco. I'll take a look at the video again and try to check closer if I can see what you mean. But maybe you could do so too in order to see my point, too, as I will seriously try to get yours.



I am aware of the speed record, which was set btw on the start/finish straight which leads into a chicane which leads into another short stretch and then into Curva Grande. So I find this aspect somewhat irrelevant, as the sections right after the straights are rather safe (wide gravel traps, air fence, etc.), whereas other sections (Ascari..) deserve much more debating. That's why I'm somewhat puzzled by your argument.



And, look, I fully agree that it's the riders who have to decide on whether it is safe to ride under changing conditions, with wet grass, and so on. So right, it surely was a legitimate decision to refuse the start under the threat of rain. But why not refuse starting 15 minutes later, when the aformentioned change of conditions was much 'closer', and the grass just as wet as before? That's why I say it was a farce - They were just inconsistent in their decisions. Either you refuse to start at all, or you just go racing. But this race - no race - half race thing is what I found pretty annoying to watch (and the fact that the pole sitter and a local favorite had their bike .... off thanks to that great procedure didn't help things either).



As for Hopper, I never meant to blame him for causing the stoppage of race one. They were on slicks, it started raining, people started to fall off, and he was one of them. It's just annoying to watch history repeat itself over and over again. And like I said before, even if he is only to blame for half his crashes, the number is still way too high. He never learned to control this, never matured, and by now everybody just shrugs when reading 'Hopper down and hurt'. And yes, I followed him last year in BSB, and I was pretty impressed. Maybe he just can't handle the pressure of a riding on the international level. Maybe it's just bad luck, or karma, or whatever. But he is crashing way too often, period.
 
sewarion said:
taking a look at your interests, this still might present a minor catastrophe..
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Why?

Hospitality means fcuk all to me.

Yeah its nice to have it but I want to shoot riders on the track!

As long as the team are there thats what is important to me.

Besides I'm not even a guest of Effenberg this weekend anyway
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sewarion said:
lil red rocket pilot

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Hahaha Laughing my arse off!

Quality mate!

Believe me I don't do the track beer.

Two cases of prime Belgian import sat besides me now.

Soon to be encased in a tomb of ice and stay ice cold all weekend!

No worries here!
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lil red rocket pilot said:
Not had the pleasure of Czech ale yet.

Brno is still possible this year though.
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I strongly recommend Budweiser. The original one, pronounced Boodweiser (being from Budweis), not the Yankee piss.. But Pilsner Urquell isn't bad either.



Brno.. now that you mentioned it I just learned that this year I can at least attend the MotoGP race - yeah! Living in Vienna that's the closest to a home GP I can get. (..... for missing out WSBK once again, for the last 3 years I've always been travelling when they were racing there).



Btw, I just tripped over an article (in German) stating that Effenbert will be present at Donington. [ http://www.motorspor...in-4917796.html ] Confusing.
 
sewarion said:
I strongly recommend Budweiser. The original one, pronounced Boodweiser (being from Budweis), not the Yankee piss.. But Pilsner Urquell isn't bad either.



Brno.. now that you mentioned it I just learned that this year I can at least attend the MotoGP race - yeah! Living in Vienna that's the closest to a home GP I can get. (..... for missing out WSBK once again, for the last 3 years I've always been travelling when they were racing there).



Btw, I just tripped over an article (in German) stating that Effenbert will be present at Donington. [ http://www.motorspor...in-4917796.html ] Confusing.
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I'll find out for sure tomorrow.

Got roaming interweb so will let you know the score tomorrow eve from my tent
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If I'm sober enough
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sewarion said:
As for Hopper, I never meant to blame him for causing the stoppage of race one. They were on slicks, it started raining, people started to fall off, and he was one of them. It's just annoying to watch history repeat itself over and over again. And like I said before, even if he is only to blame for half his crashes, the number is still way too high. He never learned to control this, never matured, and by now everybody just shrugs when reading 'Hopper down and hurt'. And yes, I followed him last year in BSB, and I was pretty impressed. Maybe he just can't handle the pressure of a riding on the international level. Maybe it's just bad luck, or karma, or whatever. But he is crashing way too often, period.
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I would only ague this...in BSB he didn't have to push as hard to be at the pointy end because the rules seem to have the bikes on equal footing, this year in WSBK he's obviously pushing to make up for the performance deficit...and just about every other series where he was a crash regular the same.
 

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