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WSB & WSS Phillip Island

Arrabbiata1

Arrabbiata1

Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Ominous. Rea is coming into this reporting a 'flawless' pre-season programme of preparation. It seems that whilst he has been busy optimising his ride, Sykesy has been busting a nut trying to emulate it and adopt a more fluid progressive braking style to suit the ZX10-RR.

...Meantime, Nicky is saying "we have work to do".

Expecting two great races, really want Chaz to come into this as he went out last year.

High hopes for Jacobsen in WSS this year.
 
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Arrabbiata1 said:
Ominous. Rea is coming into this reporting a 'flawless' pre-season programme of preparation. It seems that whilst he has been busy optimising his ride, Sykesy has been busting a nut trying to emulate it and adopt a more fluid progressive braking style to suit the ZX10-RR.

...Meantime, Nicky is saying "we have work to do".

Expecting two great races, really want Chaz to come into this as he went out last year.

High hopes for Jacobsen in WSS this year.
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I somehow think Chaz is going to have his hands full with Melandri.
I wouldn't be surprised if Melandri won it this year, Going to be a big ask though if Rea is bang on form from the start for anyone.
So looking forward to watching some racing again.
 
After he chucked away a previous WSB championship campaign I'd say he hasn't got the fortitude or the mental toughness and although his 2002 250 title was impressive, the inequities in machinery were ridiculous.

Chaz will be mostly in the tailpipe of Rea or Sykes or where he can exploit the advantages of the Panigale and his riding style - in another race altogether. Melandri won't even get a sniff of their exhaust fumes.
 
Have to agree with Arrab. I want to see Melandri do well, but Chaz and Rea especially are no slouches. Remember Melandri binned his chance of the WSB title a few years ago when all he had to do was finish races. I hope Davies continues his form and if he does, I expect it to be him Vs Rea this year with Melandri and Sykes getting the odd win.
 
Honda plonks a new , in the crate 2017 Fireblade in showroom trim at Ten Kate's doorstep. That seems to be their involvement in WSBK. It will take them half the season to figure out new bike
 
povol said:
Honda plonks a new , in the crate 2017 Fireblade in showroom trim at Ten Kate's doorstep. That seems to be their involvement in WSBK. It will take them half the season to figure out new bike
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It wont take them long to work it out, the new blade is almost exactly the same as the old one under the covers, frame and engine have only very minor changes that you wouldnt be able to spot by looking at them. New fairings and electronics are the major differences. They upped the compression slightly and use DLC coated valves with new cam spec. Its more of a facelift than a new model.
 
AJV80 said:
It wont take them long to work it out, the new blade is almost exactly the same as the old one under the covers, frame and engine have only very minor changes that you wouldnt be able to spot by looking at them. New fairings and electronics are the major differences. They upped the compression slightly and use DLC coated valves with new cam spec. Its more of a facelift than a new model.
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Where did you get the info AJV? I'd be interested to read it. DLC coated valves surprise me unless they are using more revs because there are only 2 advantages to a DLC coating on valves. 1 is impact/creep resistance on the valve seat itself and the other is reduced friction on the valve stem. Apart from reducing frictional losses fractionally I can't see any considerable improvement coming from that. DLC coatings are more widely used for reliability in automotive functions than performance.
 
#22 said:
Where did you get the info AJV? I'd be interested to read it. DLC coated valves surprise me unless they are using more revs because there are only 2 advantages to a DLC coating on valves. 1 is impact/creep resistance on the valve seat itself and the other is reduced friction on the valve stem. Apart from reducing frictional losses fractionally I can't see any considerable improvement coming from that. DLC coatings are more widely used for reliability in automotive functions than performance.
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#22 sorry my bad, it has DLC coated piston rings not valves. I read articles on it some time ago and knew something had a DLC coating. Its a very similar frame and engine thats been tweaked up, they have focussed on trying to reduce weight and obviously added loads of electronics which the Hondas have been very light on compared to the others.

I cant remember which exact article, i read quite a few about the bike but all saying pretty much the same thing. Theres an article below, its the article for the SP model which is what the SBK's will be based on (SP2's actually), from what I've read the base model engine will be identical, also a HRC race kit will be available for the SP2. A dealer mechanic friend has also seen the SP up close with fairings removed and told me a bit about it, he was disappointed that it isn't a full redesign like the GSX-R and new R1 and more like a mid model facelift with some improvements applied to the motor to get a bit more out of it and keep up with the competition.

FIRST LOOK At Honda's New CBR1000RR SP For 2017 | Motorcyclist

Another one below with a bit more on the motor.

http://www.hondaprokevin.com/2017-c...-changes-specs-sport-bike-cbr-motorcycle-news
 
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#22 said:
Where did you get the info AJV? I'd be interested to read it. DLC coated valves surprise me unless they are using more revs because there are only 2 advantages to a DLC coating on valves. 1 is impact/creep resistance on the valve seat itself and the other is reduced friction on the valve stem. Apart from reducing frictional losses fractionally I can't see any considerable improvement coming from that. DLC coatings are more widely used for reliability in automotive functions than performance.
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Do they DLC seats? Wouldn't a seat angle jobby be one of the first things on the tuning list? So you'd lose the benefit right there.
Do DLC have any benefits/drawbacks from an oil retention perpective?
 
Dr No said:
Do they DLC seats? Wouldn't a seat angle jobby be one of the first things on the tuning list? So you'd lose the benefit right there.
Do DLC have any benefits/drawbacks from an oil retention perpective?
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For piston rings, there is a 3rd party mob that do DLC face coated rings claiming they lower friction coefficient and offer better cylinder sealing (link below). Given that Honda hasn't built a new engine they are probably doing everything they can to minimise any losses. Would also help with the compression being bumped up from 12.3:1 to 13:1.

Second article below talks about DLC valve coatings, used for extreme hardness, reduced valve guide wear and reduced friction losses in something like an F1 engine.

Product Information - CarboGlide® Piston Rings Face Coating

https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/072011_07.pdf
 
Thanks, AJ. I will look at articles/links when I'm home.
I know they are as hard as ..... But need to look a bit into the surface finish/tribological (oòoo, big word) aspects.
I recall when they were used on fork sliders, but in a completely different duty...requires some research.
(haven't looked deeply into this .... since a lecturer got us to investigate some PVD titanium nitridey thingy coating for machine tools....what's that? he ran a cutting tool company? ......)
 
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AJV80 said:
It wont take them long to work it out, the new blade is almost exactly the same as the old one under the covers, frame and engine have only very minor changes that you wouldnt be able to spot by looking at them. New fairings and electronics are the major differences. They upped the compression slightly and use DLC coated valves with new cam spec. Its more of a facelift than a new model.
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Its way more than a facelift on the SP version that will be raced in WSBK. Bunch more hp, bunch less weight and electronics out the wazzu, A facelift is the dreaded BNG:D
 
povol said:
Its way more than a facelift on the SP version that will be raced in WSBK. Bunch more hp, bunch less weight and electronics out the wazzu, A facelift is the dreaded BNG:D
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The SP2 homologation version will be the bike used in WSBK. It will also have a race kit made available which is similar to what all manufacturers are doing now. Differences to the road going SP will be revised cylinder head: valves, combustion chambers and pistons, Marchesini wheels (its about 1kg lighter than the SP model) and some additional electronics.

I'm not bagging out the bike when I say facelift. The frame and the engine of the new CBR are updated versions of the current bike, I think it even carries the same model designation codes within Honda. Its not all new in the way the 2015 R1 was or the 2017 GSX-R will be. New styling, electronics, lighter and a bump in power are the main differences of the 2017 CBR over the 2016 version. The SP version will then have better electronics suspension, brakes, wheels, made lighter again and auto blip down shifter with some extra electronic features.
 
Dr No said:
Do they DLC seats? Wouldn't a seat angle jobby be one of the first things on the tuning list? So you'd lose the benefit right there.
Do DLC have any benefits/drawbacks from an oil retention perpective?
Click to expand...

Yes they do...but it's expensive. DLC can be applied after the seat angles have all been machined. I worked on a tem developing DLC coated valve seats for high pressure fuel injectors and the seat width was only 50 microns, so it can be done relatively easily on a cylinder valve seat, but it ain't cheap.

As you said in another quite, being extremely hard they are in theory excellent oil retention coatings as you have virtually no viscoelasticity but I imagine these benefits are negligible when compared to the frictional reduction offered and the main reason they've used them
 
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One of the most significant changes this year aside from Race 2 grid formation, is the move away from split to standard single piece throttle bodies which will really play into the hands of Rea's fluid style. I think this is the main reason Sykes has been trying to modify his.

Really looking forward to seeing the new 300 class.
 
Cracking race 1, very close racing. 3 seconds separated the top 10 until halfway through!

Looks like Rea still has the edge, but it's going to be a lot tighter this year.
 
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#22 said:
Cracking race 1, very close racing. 3 seconds separated the top 10 until halfway through!

Looks like Rea still has the edge, but it's going to be a lot tighter this year.
Click to expand...

Too early to tell yet. I don't think Phillip Island is the sort of circuit that gives you a good idea of where things stand just yet. We'll know after the second set of races in a few weeks.

Nicky Hayden needs to really reevaluate his loyalty to Honda. He's been made a number of bad career decisions based off that loyalty to Honda. I get they helped make his GP career possible, but there is a statute of limitations on this. Your title was over a decade ago Nicky...they repaid it by forcing you to ride a bike made by a midget so your title defense went down as the worst in history.

Not sure yet what to make of Marco Melandri. He looked to be trying to figure out best lines on the early laps...then seemed to get a good line in particular on the entry and exit out of MG after having issue with wheel spin out of the corner. I really think that entry and exit at MG is what saved Rea in Race 1. Davies could not get out of MG with enough drive to try and make an overtake attempt there.

Melandri looked impressive before crashing which he blamed on Lowes. I thought Alex Lowes was riding a very risky and dangerous race personally. Nice to see Melandri's post race comments seem to confirm it. That R1 looked very unstable with how hard he was pushing. A lot of instability under braking and in the corners relative to the Panigale and ZX-10R.

Here's an interview with Melandri after the race...he was not a happy man.

It is not the start that he wanted. Or rather, of all the possible endings, this is the worst. Marco Melandri's face is a combination of anger and disappointment. His race came to an end at the best point, as he was battling for the podium, due to a manoeuvre by Lowes that the Italian deems too much.

What exactly happened?

“Lowes changed direction 50 metres early, without waiting. He cut across the front of my bike causing me to run off. You normally want to go faster than your rivals to be them, not to knock them out. Rea executed the same manoeuvre when he passed Davies, but he knew to wait”.

You've said it's not the first time.

“The same thing happened at Donington in 2014, he's dangerous, he crosses the lines and doesn't realise. That kind of riding can be dangerous for both him and for others”.

What kind of race did you expect?

“The battle was my critical area, especially at the start. It took me some time to get my pace back, but the times were good. I didn't want Rea and Sykes to get away, as they had the best pace. I'll try again tomorrow”.

You even took the lead at certain points.

“At first I tried to maintain a relaxed pace. I also tried to break away but I wasn't able to. Perhaps I should have insisted, but we've never used these tyres at these temperatures before, it was 20 degrees warmer than yesterday. When we tried to push it was a struggle, we were all a bit worried”.

What has today taught you?

“Nothing, this is racing”.

You were dreaming of the podium. What can we expect tomorrow?

“I pictured a lot of endings, but not this one, which is the worst of all I think. Tomorrow I just want to see the chequered flag”.

In the Yamaha camp, Alex Lowes is pleased with his fourth place finish. But he is shocked by what Marco Melandri says.

“To be honest, I don't know what happened, as I didn't touch him. If he has a problem, I think it's his and not mine”.

He's said you're dangerous.

“That's his opinion, when I see him I'll ask him”.

You came close to the podium today.

“I think it was an exciting and hard-fought race. It was great to battle for the podium and that's tomorrow's goal”.

Did you expect to be so fast?

“We hadn't done a race simulation but I thought I'd be consistent. I was surprised to be so close to the leaders”.

What can we expect tomorrow?

“Tomorrow it's important for me to make a good start and keep pace. As I've said, the aim is to achieve my first podium with the Yamaha”.

https://www.gpone.com/en/2017/02/25...erous-he-crosses-the-lines.html#ixzz4Zhr2SBRe
.
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Lowes denied having done anything wrong when asked.
 
JPSLotus said:
Too early to tell yet. I don't think Phillip Island is the sort of circuit that gives you a good idea of where things stand just yet. We'll know after the second set of races in a few weeks.
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Good point, and actually one I made to a friend on Whatsapp (apparently that constitutes a secret chat group ;) ). In 2014 Laverty won a race there on the Zook but never even got a podium again that season if I recall.

I definitely think Ducati will be stronger with Melandri there over Gugliano, and it's interesting that Sykes seemed strong yesterday, usually he isn't competitive at Phillip Island so hopefully that's a good sign.
Nicky Hayden needs to really reevaluate his loyalty to Honda. He's been made a number of bad career decisions based off that loyalty to Honda. I get they helped make his GP career possible, but there is a statute of limitations on this. Your title was over a decade ago Nicky...they repaid it by forcing you to ride a bike made by a midget so your title defense went down as the worst in history.
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Agreed, I wish he'd have taken the Ducati offer in 2013. At least it was a factory ride which as good as Ten Kate are, they will only ever be a privateer team. He'd be a championship contender now if he had done so.

Not sure yet what to make of Marco Melandri. He looked to be trying to figure out best lines on the early laps...then seemed to get a good line in particular on the entry and exit out of MG after having issue with wheel spin out of the corner. I really think that entry and exit at MG is what saved Rea in Race 1. Davies could not get out of MG with enough drive to try and make an overtake attempt there.
Click to expand...

I'm giving Melandri a pass until mid season, that's then he usually finds his form on a new bike. Case in Point, Aprilia 2014.
 
JPS is absolutely right, PI is always deceptive, and like the MotoGP opener at Qatar, you can't really draw any conclusions until the ground war begins.

We know this circuit produces spectacular, close, flowing racing, but the slow pace, track temperature and tyre conservation also bunched them up - at one point only two seconds separated the top ten.

Melandri may well have a point, but bar one move at Honda, I thought Lowes rode a clean race - granted not without some hard moves to redress a lack of straight line speed. Looked like an unforced error to me. Nonetheless, and impressive return for No.33 who has always loved this place...but then who doesn't. My problem with Melandri is his inconsistency and he always gets embroiled in friction or off track shenanigans. His head is his own worst enemy...perhaps a lack of mental fortitude is harsh, I'll always admire that ride he put in for Gresini to secure the move to Ducati at Laguna having bust his ankle after a collision with Kurtis Roberts at Turn 3. As 22 says, time will tell.
 

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