Why MotoGPs new rules must work.

Ever since the introduction of 800cc bikes, people have complained about the races becoming processional. I am one of them myself. I will give an example. Having watched the last few batches of GPs , I was left a bit disappointed with the lack of overtaking.

And week a later I was watching the Aragon WSBK round. All I can say is that the racing was better than any GP I have seen this year. There was plenty of over-taking, tail sliding, and a last lap battle. Then I felt upset because these are the things that Moto-GP is lacking.

Heck I find some Moto2 races more entertaining to watch.

What I basically mean to say is that MotoGP needs to be exciting next year. Or It will start losing its credibility. MotoGP is known as the pinnacle of Motorcycle racing and it needs to show through its races, or it will lose fans. For the time being I'm afraid to say i'm enjoying WSBK racing over GP racing.



An article on why WSBK racing is more exciting than GP racing.



http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/749/5703/Motorcycle-Article/World-Superbike-vs--MotoGP-Editorial.aspx

Viper-7 said:

Ever since the introduction of 800cc bikes, people have complained about the races becoming processional. I am one of them myself. I will give an example. Having watched the last few batches of GPs , I was left a bit disappointed with the lack of overtaking.

And week a later I was watching the Aragon WSBK round. All I can say is that the racing was better than any GP I have seen this year. There was plenty of over-taking, tail sliding, and a last lap battle. Then I felt upset because these are the things that Moto-GP is lacking.

Heck I find some Moto2 races more entertaining to watch.

What I basically mean to say is that MotoGP needs to be exciting next year. Or It will start losing its credibility. MotoGP is known as the pinnacle of Motorcycle racing and it needs to show through its races, or it will lose fans. For the time being I'm afraid to say i'm enjoying WSBK racing over GP racing.



An article on why WSBK racing is more exciting than GP racing.



http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/749/5703/Motorcycle-Article/World-Superbike-vs--MotoGP-Editorial.aspx

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For the 10000000 time, GP racing is prototype racing, its not supposed to be about close racing.Its about a group of little pointy headed guys creating and building superior machinery over another group of little pointy headed guys. ITS ABOUT THE MACHINES. We have WSBK, BSB AMA spec bikes for close racing, those series are about the riders. If thats what you prefer, your just a bigger fan of spec racing than prototype racing. No shame in that, just quit trying to make GP racing something its not.

If that's truly what it is about then it will disappear.



Nobody is going to pay for people to go and ride exotic, expensive bikes (that from the outside, to the 'average person' look just like normal ones) without close racing. Processional races will lead to people not watching and no sponsors and then no money for 'prototype' bikes. That's the commercial reality. People on this forum don't matter, we will always watch. It is creating a product that the average person will desire to watch that is important.



Between Dorna, the FIM and the MSMA they have made a dogs breakfast of the rules and that's why we have crp racing and no bikes.

browney said:

If that's truly what it is about then it will disappear.



Nobody is going to pay for people to go and ride exotic, expensive bikes (that from the outside, to the 'average person' look just like normal ones) without close racing. Processional races will lead to people not watching and no sponsors and then no money for 'prototype' bikes. That's the commercial reality. People on this forum don't matter, we will always watch. It is creating a product that the average person will desire to watch that is important.



Between Dorna, the FIM and the MSMA they have made a dogs breakfast of the rules and that's why we have crp racing and no bikes.

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Agreed, yes these are prototype bikes but we need racing to keep people engaged.

povol said:

For the 10000000 time, GP racing is prototype racing, its not supposed to be about close racing Its about a group of little pointy headed guys creating and building superior machinery over another group of little pointy headed guys. ITS ABOUT THE MACHINES. We have WSBK, BSB AMA spec bikes for close racing, those series are about the riders. If thats what you prefer, your just a bigger fan of spec racing than prototype racing. No shame in that, just quit trying to make GP racing something its not.

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So we might as well watch 25 formation laps??? MotoGP needs closer racing.

povol said:

For the 10000000 time, GP racing is prototype racing, its not supposed to be about close racing.Its about a group of little pointy headed guys creating and building superior machinery over another group of little pointy headed guys. ITS ABOUT THE MACHINES. We have WSBK, BSB AMA spec bikes for close racing, those series are about the riders. If thats what you prefer, your just a bigger fan of spec racing than prototype racing. No shame in that, just quit trying to make GP racing something its not.

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Than what was that thing we where watching in the nineties?



Because if it only was about the machines ever getting better then surely the Assen lap record by Kevin Schwantz would've been broken the following year. Yet it stood from 1992 all the way up to 2002 after which they changed the layout.

I agree with Pov. MotoGP just like F1 is about continuously push the boundaries of what is possible from a 2 wheeled or 4 wheeled vehicle. It attracts the greatest brains and requires the best pilots.



Where I can agree with the OP is that the rules are a dogs breakfast. The rules for prototype racing need to be far more open with sufficient room to encourage manufacturers both major and race specific to think and develop outside the box if the envelop is to continue to be pushed. In my opinion the rules should be open with one limiting factor to prevent things getting dangerous. In my view it should be tyres but others such as Lex have suggested in the past a top speed limit would be the way to go.



Production racing is the place for rules that encourage close and cost effective racing. I don't know any F1 fans who don't watch a production based series which generally delivers the door banging close battles that fill the other part of their motor racing fix. Motorcycles are the same - MotoGP for the technical and extreme limits and the multitude of SBK and SS series to complete the fix.

browney said:

If that's truly what it is about then it will disappear.



Nobody is going to pay for people to go and ride exotic, expensive bikes (that from the outside, to the 'average person' look just like normal ones) without close racing. ] Processional races will lead to people not watching and no sponsors and then no money for 'prototype' bikes. That's the commercial reality. People on this forum don't matter, we will always watch. It is creating a product that the average person will desire to watch that is important.



Between Dorna, the FIM and the MSMA they have made a dogs breakfast of the rules and that's why we have crp racing and no bikes.

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They have for the last 52 years. Again, you and Dorna are trying to turn GP into something its not intended to be. This is a series for gearheads, not bandwagon fans whose attention span demands they be entertained by a guy in a chicken suit. Im sure when a certain entertainer retires, a lot of the fans will retire with him and we can get back to the business of racing instead of entertaining. I just pray that Lorenzo, or anyone else for that matter, gives up trying to copy that nonsense.

povol said:

For the 10000000 time, GP racing is prototype racing, its not supposed to be about close racing.Its about a group of little pointy headed guys creating and building superior machinery over another group of little pointy headed guys. ITS ABOUT THE MACHINES. We have WSBK, BSB AMA spec bikes for close racing, those series are about the riders. If thats what you prefer, your just a bigger fan of spec racing than prototype racing. No shame in that, just quit trying to make GP racing something its not.

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Then why race at all ? It used to be about prototype bike development years ago. Now there's a lot more to it. When was the last time you saw something truly new and innovative on a gp bike , Something never done before on a motor vehicle. Yester year there were loads of examples like the double wishbone elf bike ect ect. Gp is about bums on seats, TV rights, merchandise ect now.

chopperman said:

When was the last time you saw something truly new and innovative on a gp bike , Something never done before on a motor vehicle.

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Look no further than the Ducati GP. True prototype.

Jumkie said:

Look no further than the Ducati GP. True prototype.

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Jumkie said:

Look no further than the Ducati GP. True prototype.

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Why ?? Bolting a swing arm to the engine is nothing new and im sure headstock's have been bolted to engines causing the engine to become the frame has been done. They still use telescopic forks, conventional rear suspension ect. Desmo have been out for donkeys years. What exactly make's it a prototype ??? i will tell you. You can't buy the bike. You can buy bikes with many of the so-called prototype features tho.



Next time you come to the uk i will take you to a motorcycle museum called Sammy Millers. There you will see gp bikes from yester year that really were prototypes.

chopperman said:

Then why race at all ? It used to be about prototype bike development years ago. Now there's a lot more to it. When was the last time you saw something truly new and innovative on a gp bike , Something never done before on a motor vehicle. Yester year there were loads of examples like the double wishbone elf bike ect ect. Gp is about bums on seats, TV rights, merchandise ect now.

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Thats how you determine which group of little pointy headed guys built the superior machine. You guys might have noticed in the years that i have been here, that i dont comment on the races that much. My first gut reaction after a race is not to get on a message board and either tell the world how bored i am, or how excited i am. This is not entertainment to me, its competition, and the race itself is just a culmination of a week or twos work by a lot of people. The margin of victory is meaningless to me, just that one group outdid the other group.





Dorna is going to find that they painted themselves into a corner during the Rossi era. I fully expect them to try and replicate him with one of the current or upcoming riders.There problem is, the power riders in the series at the moment are still young and will be winners for years to come. Two of them, Stoner and Pedrosa will never be the new media darlings. Lorenzo tried to copy the act and failed, is just being himself now. Even though Simo looks like a ....... clown, he doesnt seem to be that over the top as far as being a regular guy. It aint Spies for sure. So who does Dorna crown as the next savior. MotoGP is just a microcosm of the real world economy, smoke and mirrors and one large scam. Once the ponzi scheme is up, it will fall back to natural balances

Theres a couple of reason why these bike's are not true prototypes. Firstly is trend, secondly is they dare not take to many risks in developing from the norm in case it goes .... up. Ducati is the closest thing on the grid to a prototype and look where its got them !



Ron Haslams Elf bike was very innovative in that like the ducati it did not have a conventional frame, it used a double wish bone so used the engine as the stressed member. The advantage was rake and trail angels were not decreased under braking like they are on bikes using telescopic forks, in other words the bike geometry remained unchanged. The part why it failed was due to bump steer IIRC. Bump steer is where the wheel steers when it moves upward like a car wheel does.

Yamaha used hub centre steering on a road bike (GTR1000) and if didn't really sell. Us bikers don't like radical change as a rule, the only bike manufacturer i can think of that use something different is BMW and that took years to catch on. I'm sure if the hub steer wishbone idea was developed know the issues it had years ago could be corrected but why bother. Yamaha proved we don't like to spend our money on new weird things even if it is better.



Motogp is not seriously about developing new ...., its about making money.

-No singel tyre rule

-No 21L fuel limit

-No 6 engines per/year crap

-No more rule changes



There's a start. . . . . .



True prototypes, Britten V1000 or MotoCzysz C1

Badfish said:

-No singel tyre rule

-No 21L fuel limit

-No 6 engines per/year crap

-No more rule changes



There's a start. . . . . .



True prototypes, Britten V1000 or MotoCzysz C1

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That man was a modern day Einstein. I watch his dvd once and it blew my mind !

Badfish said:

-No singel tyre rule

-No 21L fuel limit

-No 6 engines per/year crap

-No more rule changes



There's a start. . . . .



True prototypes, Britten V1000 or MotoCzysz C1

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exactly, a prototype simply cannot be developed under such restrictions

chopperman said:

That man was a modern day Einstein. I watch his dvd once and it blew my mind !

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They have one at Barber museum, you can spend an hour just looking at the thing. Its hard to tell if the guy was a batshit crazy savant, or just a mechanical genius.

povol said:

For the 10000000 time, GP racing is prototype racing, its not supposed to be about close racing.Its about a group of little pointy headed guys creating and building superior machinery over another group of little pointy headed guys. ITS ABOUT THE MACHINES. We have WSBK, BSB AMA spec bikes for close racing, those series are about the riders. If thats what you prefer, your just a bigger fan of spec racing than prototype racing. No shame in that, just quit trying to make GP racing something its not.

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If one competitor ran away with the championship by defeating the world's best manufacturers and the world's best riders, no one would complain. MotoGP is fortunate enough to have the world's best riders, but the manufacturers are lacking. Neither BMW, Kawasaki, nor Aprilia (now with Piaggio behind them) are interested in MotoGP. F1 engine building interests and private chassis manufacturers are not interested in MotoGP. Why? B/c one (or possibly two) manufacturer has written a god-awful 21L rule that keeps participants away while boring the sponsors and fans to tears.



The same problem existed during the 2-stroke era b/c not many manufacturers were interested in playing around with 2-stroke technology. The four stroke rule was written specifically to bring new entrants. After a half dozen seasons, Honda/Yamaha got bored with 990cc and ample fuel so they concocted a formula that would put manufacturers (not riders....so much for 80/20) in command and slow the bikes to appropriate speeds. Everyone is headed for the exits, some are running due to the economic situation.



The house is burning to the ground, but you are telling everyone not to throw water on it b/c the computer might get ruined. Sorry about your motorcycle .... collection. It's a goner, but you're never going to get it back unless the fire gets extinguished.

Badfish said:

-No singel tyre rule

-No 21L fuel limit

-No 6 engines per/year crap

-No more rule changes



There's a start. . . . . .



True prototypes, Britten V1000 or MotoCzysz C1

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The V1000 is truly an amazing bike I read an article awhile back I forget where saying that he engineered and built the house where the bike was built. Apparently he wove the CF body panels by hand. John Britten even inspired infamous bike builder Jesse James saying that he couldn't get over "the bundle of snakes exhaust".