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Why it's time to stop whining about Marquez's MotoGP qualifying tactics

mylexicon said:
This is a complex issue.

On one hand, towing is not against the current rules, and towing around the track in close proximity is what the riders are paid to do. "He's following me too closely!!" is a strange utterance. Yeah, we know. He's paid to follow you around, maybe even launch several hopeless overtaking attempts during 50 laps of competition at each event. It's similar to the Mav situation. "I can't believe he just bounced the engine of the rev limiter!". Really? Well, I hope you don't put him in prison when you find out he downshifts the bike and sends the rpm to the moon in every braking zone.

On the other hand, practice and qualifying are not points-scoring affairs, and the notion that Marquez is trying to maintain a competitive edge, when he and his teammate have racked up 50 crashes this season, is a disingenuous claim, imo. Marc is deadwood this year. There is no viable strategic component to his towing behavior, other than making other riders in the paddock uncomfortable and disrupting their sessions. Similarly, there was no strategic advantage to Mav opening the throttle on his way into pit lane, and that's why he was fired from Yamaha.

How does the saying go? Something like: Maximalists benefit others to benefit themselves. Altruists disadvantage themselves to benefit others. Thieves disadvantage others to benefit themselves. Morons disadvantage themselves to disadvantage others. Marc the unrepentant thief is a sexy counter-culture trope to bolster a struggling legend, but if you look at the results dispassionately, rather than through the rose-tinted glasses of a speed-drunk fan, you'll see (imo) that we are much closer to Marc the moron. He's not really poaching undeserved results, he's just causing occasional calamity for himself, and inflicting psychological damage on the paddock. The benefit of this strategy is not manifest in the points log, and could be categorized as mainly illusory, especially if you consider the opportunity costs of seeking a tow, rather than working on setup and bike development.

The rules cannot be selectively applied based upon the perceived risk-reward of the stewards during practice, but Marc has proven this season that risk-it-for-the-biscuit is not the SOP for everyone. A rider might introduce pointless risk to deprive others of the risk-reward benefit they currently enjoy. That strategy should only remain relatively unregulated on race day, and only to protect the riders' ability to take risks. Even on race day the stewards necessarily hand out penalties to prevent sport from devolving into a war of attrition. I don't see any reason to allow towing to persist during practice sessions.
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I'd have to disagree that he is doing it just to be a pita or get into peoples heads. Alienating everybody else you are racing doesn't make sense as a strategy for future results.
The start is important and overtaking is harder. Yeah he isn't a factor in the championship but he is a racer and is after the best result possible. His job is to place the Honda as high as possible in the results and he is paid more than any other rider to achieve that. Not trying his best for the best result just doesn't line up with his previous performance and makeup imo.
27 crashes so far this season despite being out of contention for the championship and for race wins most of the time just shows how hard he is trying. Particularly so, given his fractured humerus and shoulder probs. I don't see him as stupid or plain reckless, he is just doing as he has always done, pushing the bike to and over the limit, so he knows clearly where it is in the race.

With respect to qualifying he has clearly worked out pushing the bike over the limit without a tow isn't getting him near the front of the grid. Passing on a machine that loses such ground out of the corners is very hard it would seem given it no longer appears better into them either. A better grid position is essential for any sort of result. During the race there are others to follow so it is going to be there for him after qualifying.

It is up to Honda to look at the data he is providing, work out the weaknesses and strengthen them. They don't appear to be doing that well. MM, it appears to me, is doing the best to place that thing as high as possible and get it around the track as fast as possible.
 
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michaelm said:
My major fan allegiance these days since Lorenzo retired is to MM, but if he seeks tows just to mess with other riders I can’t defend that. I usually watch qualifying but mostly don’t watch the free practice sessions currently (I do look up the results), along with others not being overly keen on aero bikes and 8 Ducatis with a performance advantage.

I had hitherto thought MM mainly went after tows in the interests of setting a fast lap time, which is important in both FP1 and FP2 given the best lap time in those sessions determines whether a rider is in Q1 or Q2 in qualifying, and one session not infrequently determines same if conditions are different due to temperature/weather, the laying down of rubber, etc.
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Shows how much I have been watching practice, I hadn’t realised entry to Q1 had changed to being based solely on the second Friday practice session. So perhaps understandable to seek tows in that session as Warthog has said, if not so much in FP1.
 
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warthog1 said:
I'd have to disagree that he is doing it just to be a pita or get into peoples heads. Alienating everybody else you are racing doesn't make sense as a strategy for future results.
The start is important and overtaking is harder. Yeah he isn't a factor in the championship but he is a racer and is after the best result possible. His job is to place the Honda as high as possible in the results and he is paid more than any other rider to achieve that. Not trying his best for the best result just doesn't line up with his previous performance and makeup imo.
27 crashes so far this season despite being out of contention for the championship and for race wins most of the time just shows how hard he is trying. Particularly so, given his fractured humerus and shoulder probs. I don't see him as stupid or plain reckless, he is just doing as he has always done, pushing the bike to and over the limit, so he knows clearly where it is in the race.

With respect to qualifying he has clearly worked out pushing the bike over the limit without a tow isn't getting him near the front of the grid. Passing on a machine that loses such ground out of the corners is very hard it would seem given it no longer appears better into them either. A better grid position is essential for any sort of result. During the race there are others to follow so it is going to be there for him after qualifying.

It is up to Honda to look at the data he is providing, work out the weaknesses and strengthen them. They don't appear to be doing that well. MM, it appears to me, is doing the best to place that thing as high as possible and get it around the track as fast as possible.
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It's difficult to determine Marc's motives. Given his past behavior, I'd be inclined to assume the worst so I decided to look for real and potential benefits to Marc's towing strategy, but nothing substantial materialized.

Without a doubt he's snuck into Q1 several times when he didn't have the pace, and he's secured several unexpected results by achieving a good grid position, and taking chances during the race, but the data for this season is not flattering. Plus it's difficult to compare these results with the unknown possibilities had Marc remained healthy or focused more on bike setup. The objective benefit of towing (without knowing Marc's psychological enjoyment from risk-taking) is depriving his competitors of their space and mental focus. In an elite sport that is perhaps the biggest edge a competitor can achieve.

Maybe working backwards is inappropriate for this situation, but I'm not sure Marc's intent matters. Towing isn't a crime. It's just a matter of liability, imo.

If intent is central to the towing argument, I can see why people would defend Marc. It's not like he's changed at all, now that the RC is slow.
 
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michaelm said:
My major fan allegiance these days since Lorenzo retired is to MM, but if he seeks tows just to mess with other riders I can’t defend that. I usually watch qualifying but mostly don’t watch the free practice sessions currently (I do look up the results), along with others not being overly keen on aero bikes and 8 Ducatis with a performance advantage.

I had hitherto thought MM mainly went after tows in the interests of setting a fast lap time, which is important in both FP1 and FP2 given the best lap time in those sessions determines whether a rider is in Q1 or Q2 in qualifying, and one session not infrequently determines same if conditions are different due to temperature/weather, the laying down of rubber, etc.
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That's true. If you drill down from the big picture of the championship and/or career trajectory, and you focus only on the tow itself, the benefit materializes and the costs disappear. Is it correct to argue that the act of towing exists in a vacuum? or should be evaluated in a vacuum?

We need some legal experts to war game this for us in a mock FIM trial (hah!), and it should be televised. The ratings would be better than practice, imo, and Marc should be led into the courtroom in cuffs for dramatic effect.
 
mylexicon said:
It's difficult to determine Marc's motives. Given his past behavior, I'd be inclined to assume the worst so I decided to look for real and potential benefits to Marc's towing strategy, but nothing substantial materialized.

Without a doubt he's snuck into Q1 several times when he didn't have the pace, and he's secured several unexpected results by achieving a good grid position, and taking chances during the race, but the data for this season is not flattering. Plus it's difficult to compare these results with the unknown possibilities had Marc remained healthy or focused more on bike setup. The objective benefit of towing (without knowing Marc's psychological enjoyment from risk-taking) is depriving his competitors of their space and mental focus. In an elite sport that is perhaps the biggest edge a competitor can achieve.

Maybe working backwards is inappropriate for this situation, but I'm not sure Marc's intent matters. Towing isn't a crime. It's just a matter of liability, imo.

If intent is central to the towing argument, I can see why people would defend Marc. It's not like he's changed at all, now that the RC is slow.
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He is and has been after results. As you say it has achieved better results on occasion.
The aero and ride height .... make it harder to pass. Grid position is important and they are all after it for this reason.
I am happy he is still trying to achieve the best result on the Honda and pushing it hard.
He will need to be at the top of his game next year too if he is to do as well as he can on a better bike. These are the best riders in the world and I imagine you don't beat them by just rolling around within the limits of the motorbike.
If a tow gives him grid position next year also I expect it will still take place.
Clearly he is there to win, it appears pretty central to his motivation given the deal he most recently signed.
 
mylexicon said:
It's difficult to determine Marc's motives. Given his past behavior, I'd be inclined to assume the worst so I decided to look for real and potential benefits to Marc's towing strategy, but nothing substantial materialized.

Without a doubt he's snuck into Q1 several times when he didn't have the pace, and he's secured several unexpected results by achieving a good grid position, and taking chances during the race, but the data for this season is not flattering. Plus it's difficult to compare these results with the unknown possibilities had Marc remained healthy or focused more on bike setup. The objective benefit of towing (without knowing Marc's psychological enjoyment from risk-taking) is depriving his competitors of their space and mental focus. In an elite sport that is perhaps the biggest edge a competitor can achieve.

Maybe working backwards is inappropriate for this situation, but I'm not sure Marc's intent matters. Towing isn't a crime. It's just a matter of liability, imo.

If intent is central to the towing argument, I can see why people would defend Marc. It's not like he's changed at all, now that the RC is slow.
Click to expand...
I agree that it's clear that, through towing, Marc has managed to get his bike further up the grid than he would have without towing. IMO, once this is legal, then fair play to him, whether or not he deprives competitors of space and mental focus. After-all, the latter is a valid aspect of competing and if, within the rules of the sport, he manages to do this as well, then it's an added bonus to the tactic. It's up to the FIM to legislate rules to control this as with any other aspects of racing, whether it be to do with safety, sporting fairness etc.

I'm actually surprised that something hasn't been done yet, and expect that it will happen soon. Currently, it's the same for everyone, in that all may choose to tow or not to. As with any situation, it works for some riders and not for others. However, what we shouldn't see is overt disruption in the proceedings because of it and we have already seen this happening. They may well come up with delta-time rules as they have in F1 to prevent excessive slowing while doing an out-lap. But this created pitlane issues as a side-effect and F1 recently covered this with rules adjustments as well.

Marc is a fierce competitor and isn't out there to play nice with the other riders. He's out there to get the best out of his bike within the rules and if towing is one tactic, then he will do it. This does not in any way imply that he does not pay attention to his bike setup as well.
 
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warthog1 said:
Seems pretty clear to me.

www.crash.net

Marc Marquez: “That’s how we have to do it…”

After the four Hondas had been left bottom of the timesheets in opening Qatar MotoGP practice, Marc Marquez managed to snatch an unlikely top ten place for direct Q2 access in the evening.
www.crash.net www.crash.net
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No one can dispute that towing is faster. It's a scientific fact, especially if the trailing bike has an inefficient aero setup. Similarly, no one can dispute that Marc has occasionally punched above his weight class by using a tow to improve his time.

The issue is one of negative externalities--whether the benefits exceed the negative externalities, and whether Marc's competitors should be required to pay them. Everyone has a different perception of the events this season, but I personally have trouble seeing a net benefit when you consider how poorly Marquez has performed, how much time he's lost to injury, and how little the bike has improved throughout the season.

Why continue to tow? Where is the payback that makes injury, the political ill-will, the loss of reputation, the potential penalties/sanctions all worth it? Improving from 13th to 9th on the grid? Or belief that you are inflicting max psychological damage on your opponents by disrupting their events? If Marc is just wired to take risk, and he's making no calculation, should the competitors be required to carry the burden of his on-track antics? Furthermore, the competitors are not set in stone. They haven't even employed basic ...-for-tat yet. There is a lot of rough riding they can do in practice, particularly since Marc is not particularly quick.

We are still in the pearl-clutching phase of Marc=bad. It should end here. Nothing improves if competitors start pushing back during practice. There is basically zero cost of retaliation during practice. No one has done anything yet because they are still hoping the FIM will get involved. The FIM appears to hope that this will all go away next season.
 
misfit said:
I agree that it's clear that, through towing, Marc has managed to get his bike further up the grid than he would have without towing. IMO, once this is legal, then fair play to him, whether or not he deprives competitors of space and mental focus. After-all, the latter is a valid aspect of competing and if, within the rules of the sport, he manages to do this as well, then it's an added bonus to the tactic. It's up to the FIM to legislate rules to control this as with any other aspects of racing, whether it be to do with safety, sporting fairness etc.

I'm actually surprised that something hasn't been done yet, and expect that it will happen soon. Currently, it's the same for everyone, in that all may choose to tow or not to. As with any situation, it works for some riders and not for others. However, what we shouldn't see is overt disruption in the proceedings because of it and we have already seen this happening. They may well come up with delta-time rules as they have in F1 to prevent excessive slowing while doing an out-lap. But this created pitlane issues as a side-effect and F1 recently covered this with rules adjustments as well.

Marc is a fierce competitor and isn't out there to play nice with the other riders. He's out there to get the best out of his bike within the rules and if towing is one tactic, then he will do it. This does not in any way imply that he does not pay attention to his bike setup as well.
Click to expand...

Well said. He is out there to do the best he can and that is a way to improve the result.
Nobody can argue he isnt trying to get the best he dan out of that bike. 27 crashes in a season would seem to indicate he is trying.
It is just another tool to improve the result.
 
mylexicon said:
No one can dispute that towing is faster. It's a scientific fact, especially if the trailing bike has an inefficient aero setup. Similarly, no one can dispute that Marc has occasionally punched above his weight class by using a tow to improve his time.

The issue is one of negative externalities--whether the benefits exceed the negative externalities, and whether Marc's competitors should be required to pay them. Everyone has a different perception of the events this season, but I personally have trouble seeing a net benefit when you consider how poorly Marquez has performed, how much time he's lost to injury, and how little the bike has improved throughout the season.

Why continue to tow? Where is the payback that makes injury, the political ill-will, the loss of reputation, the potential penalties/sanctions all worth it? Improving from 13th to 9th on the grid? Or belief that you are inflicting max psychological damage on your opponents by disrupting their events? If Marc is just wired to take risk, and he's making no calculation, should the competitors be required to carry the burden of his on-track antics? Furthermore, the competitors are not set in stone. They haven't even employed basic ...-for-tat yet. There is a lot of rough riding they can do in practice, particularly since Marc is not particularly quick.

We are still in the pearl-clutching phase of Marc=bad. It should end here. Nothing improves if competitors start pushing back during practice. There is basically zero cost of retaliation during practice. No one has done anything yet because they are still hoping the FIM will get involved. The FIM appears to hope that this will all go away next season.
Click to expand...

That is a big step step up to do rough riding a la Rossi I presume.
He is simply following to improve his result and not affecting others' track position. The only way that happens is if they respond to the tow.

Marc =bad?
VR fans have long passed that despite/due to the behaviour of their idol. Plenty of fans of the sport recognise Marc as a competitor and somebody who will do what he can to improve his result. It seems fairly obvious that is what this is.
If it is banned well and good.
If it is not we will see what happens next year when he is on a faster bike. The obvious competitor response will be to follow him.
 
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warthog1 said:
That is a big step step up to do rough riding a la Rossi I presume.
He is simply following to improve his result and not affecting others' track position. The only way that happens is if they respond to the tow.

Marc =bad?
VR fans have long passed that despite/due to the behaviour of their idol. Plenty of fans of the sport recognise Marc as a competitor and somebody who will do what he can to improve his result. It seems fairly obvious that is what this is.
If it is banned well and good.
If it is not we will see what happens next year when he is on a faster bike. The obvious competitor response will be to follow him.
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It’s not the fans who are starting to complain. It’s the riders, and probably the insurance people, which begs the questions about where to draw the line.

I don’t think what Marquez is doing is wrong, but it seems to lack introspection, benefit and logic. It seems pathological, which takes self-regulation off of the table.
 
mylexicon said:
It’s not the fans who are starting to complain. It’s the riders, and probably the insurance people, which begs the questions about where to draw the line.

I don’t think what Marquez is doing is wrong, but it seems to lack introspection, benefit and logic. It seems pathological, which takes self-regulation off of the table.
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Pathological?
I am watching a rider who is paid big money for results, still trying his best for results and doing it within the rules. He finished ahead of 2 Ducatis on that POS in this race which, when you see how much slower it is, particularly down the straight , is impressive imo.
Anyway we disagree.
 
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In regards to qualifying tactics there's an average of less than 0.1 seconds between riders on the grid, the tiniest improvement is going to give you a better position on the grid, sometimes by several rows.

The solution is to bring in a process where you must do your hot lap with no other rider near you
 
mylexicon said:
It’s not the fans who are starting to complain. It’s the riders, and probably the insurance people, which begs the questions about where to draw the line.

I don’t think what Marquez is doing is wrong, but it seems to lack introspection, benefit and logic. It seems pathological, which takes self-regulation off of the table.
Click to expand...
I consider him to have been less careless of the safety of others than he was early in his career (when Jumkie considered him to be "slightly autistic" as I recall) for most of his latter career, if a little dodgy early season this season before he decided not to push quite so hard on the first lap in his as you say hopeless situation, but he has always been about his own performance and own ends and in addition to not caring what Valentino Rossi thought of him probably doesn't overly care about what other riders think of him either. He has just given up a 20 million dollar per year contract to get on a more competitive bike, and if the 2023 bike is as competitive in 2024 as the 2022 Ducati has been this year probably won't have much reason to care about what the other riders think about him next season either. I think he will retire when or if he regards himself as intrinsically uncompetitive. As I said I believe along with Warthog that he is seeking tows to get a faster lap time rather than to deliberately irritate his competitors but certainly wouldn't defend him if he is/was doing the latter. One thing I don't anticipate is him complaining about others seeking tows from him or putting hard passes on him if he does get back to the front of the field however.
 
I am not a huge MM fan. However, I will go on record saying that I have never heard MM complain of any rider employing tactics, legal or illegal, to get an advantage. If only for this reason, MM can look for a tow any time without it bothering me personally.

It's the whiners like...... well take your pick, there are a few, who don't have a leg to stand on when complaining about Marc Marquez doing anything, since none of them to my knowledge are fault free do gooders.
 
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Bern1 said:
I am not a huge MM fan. However, I will go on record saying that I have never heard MM complain of any rider employing tactics, legal or illegal, to get an advantage. If only for this reason, MM can look for a tow any time without it bothering me personally.

It's the whiners like...... well take your pick, there are a few, who don't have a leg to stand on when complaining about Marc Marquez doing anything, since none of them to my knowledge are fault free do gooders.
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Cough cough Aleix Espargaro cough
 

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