Valentino

Everyone knows I partiularly will always fight Valentino's corner. Clearly throughout the world he has a lot of fans and I think its crazy how people are saying that he is "washed up" and "being owned by Stoner" YES casey is riding very well and is a definite contender for the championship title but i think its ridiclous for people to count out the 7 times world champion when were only 5 races into the season.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tinks @ May 23 2007, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Everyone knows I partiularly will always fight Valentino's corner. Clearly throughout the world he has a lot of fans and I think its crazy how people are saying that he is "washed up" and "being owned by Stoner" YES casey is riding very well and is a definite contender for the championship title but i think its ridiclous for people to count out the 7 times world champion when were only 5 races into the season.

Yep, I agree with you 100%
Stoner has a Ducati, which is so fast down those straights. Rossi has a Yamaha, which he's great in corners with. Now, a lot of the tracks they're been to so far have had long straights. No one can determine Rossi's way of racing until we've been to a track with lots of corners and fairly easy straights. See how well the Ducati works then.

I can't wait until Sachsenring, should be great

Well this is what i think..............

So far this season Stoner has ridden better than Rossi.

Rossi is past his best, and is not as good as he used to be. However he is still the best (or 2nd best) rider out there.

Rossi should never be counted out. It would be foolish to bet against him to win any individual race, and even the title. We know by now he can do some very special things.

Rossi is overall a better rider than stoner, he has 7 world titles and years more experience. But that isn't relevant to this seasons form so far.

Rossi is the best rider of all time.

Rossi is great for our sport, him leaving will be very sad, but I'll get over it and be happy i saw the man race (and win).

Rossi is almost always a good sportsman, and often very gracious in both victory and defeat.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 23 2007, 08:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well this is what i think..............

So far this season Stoner has ridden better than Rossi.

Rossi is past his best, and is not as good as he used to be. However he is still the best (or 2nd best) rider out there.

No, no, no. You can't judge that 5 races into the season. People have beaten him like this before e.g last season. Hayden beat him many times, but did people say he was past his best? Maybe they did, but he recovered so many points that it was down to the last race to determine the champion. Hayden didn't finish probably once last season during a race and that was Estoril. Rossi was continually doing it for the first few races. Anyone could have said that he was past his best then, but what person who was past his best could possibly do that?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Louise @ May 23 2007, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No, no, no. You can't judge that 5 races into the season. People have beaten him like this before e.g last season. Hayden beat him many times, but did people say he was past his best? Maybe they did, but he recovered so many points that it was down to the last race to determine the champion. Hayden didn't finish probably once last season during a race and that was Estoril. Rossi was continually doing it for the first few races. Anyone could have said that he was past his best then, but what person who was past his best could possibly do that?

My "past his best" comment is not based on just these 5 races, but also on last years performances. You make reference to great things Rossi has done in the not distant past. I'm not going to belittle these achievements but rather point out that as incredible as some of Rossi's rides were last year, i don't feel they were as good as his more incredible rides from the more distant past. This plus the fact that Rossi's was shown last year to be slightly flawed, leads me to believe he is on the downward slope of his career. I don't think he is far below what he used to be, but think back to what he used to be like, and things have changed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 23 2007, 08:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My "past his best" comment is not based on just these 5 races, but also on last years performances. You make reference to great things Rossi has done in the not distant past. I'm not going to belittle these achievements but rather point out that as incredible as some of Rossi's rides were last year, i don't feel they were as good as his more incredible rides from the more distant past. This plus the fact that Rossi's was shown last year to be slightly flawed, leads me to believe he is on the downward slope of his career. I don't think he is far below what he used to be, but think back to what he used to be like, and things have changed.

You can judge someone being 'past their best' by the bike. Look at how many times Rossi's bike had something wrong with it last year. That's clearly, and obviously, down to the bike, not Valentino. So, respectively, you could say that his Yamaha is past it's best. After all, the Ducati is clearly faster.
I would like to mention the tyres. Bridgestone are working so well this year and most of the winners, have been riding on Bridgestone. Doesn't that affect their ability to race?

valentino is god, stoner's ugly lol

Tom, id like to disagree, but you have a point about being "past his best" although in my opinion he is still the best, ofcourse, ima cheerleader for god sake!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daniel @ May 23 2007, 08:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>ima cheerleader for god sake!!

Woah. That's disturbing...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Louise @ May 23 2007, 08:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You can judge someone being 'past their best' by the bike. Look at how many times Rossi's bike had something wrong with it last year. That's clearly, and obviously, down to the bike, not Valentino. So, respectively, you could say that his Yamaha is past it's best. After all, the Ducati is clearly faster.
I would like to mention the tyres. Bridgestone are working so well this year and most of the winners, have been riding on Bridgestone. Doesn't that affect their ability to race?

Of course i am not judging Rossi on the races the Yamaha or Michelin's crapped out. We saw new things from Rossi last year, including mistakes and a poor reaction to pressure. His mental approach has matured somewhat (as is natural) and new riders have emerged to challenge, leaving Rossi with less of an edge than he used to have. Previously he was able to rise to almost all additional challenges with such success that it looked easy, but now we see less spectacular results being achieved with relatively large amounts of stress. I think both Rossi and the sport has changed, the result is Rossi is not quite the figure he was, that doesn't mean necessarily that he isn't still the best.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 23 2007, 09:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Of course i am not judging Rossi on the races the Yamaha or Michelin's crapped out. We saw new things from Rossi last year, including mistakes and a poor reaction to pressure. His mental approach has matured somewhat (as is natural) and new riders have emerged to challenge, leaving Rossi with less of an edge than he used to have. Previously he was able to rise to almost all additional challenges with such success that it looked easy, but now we see less spectacular results being achieved with relatively large amounts of stress. I think both Rossi and the sport has changed, the result is Rossi is not quite the figure he was, that doesn't mean necessarily that he isn't still the best.

Hang on, MotoGP has changed? Well of course. They've switched from 990cc to 800cc, clearly a change in the sport.
Previously, battles with Biaggi and Gibernau were on 990's, and probably 500's. So, battles with more powerful bikes was what Rossi was used to. Going onto 800's, smaller bikes with an obvious disadvantage for Rossi. The new bikes are ideal for Stoner and Pedrosa because they are the perfect size for them. Like Hayden, Rossi is taller and look like they're riding pocket bikes. So that's why Rossi has changed. Maybe not in a good way so far, but there hasn't been a lot of races for Rossi to prove that he can get used to the new 800. Having a bike that he's not used to and not fitting onto well will have to allow Rossi to become familiar with the bike, as all of the taller riders do. Once Rossi has become familiar with the bike, he will be able to develop new strategies of passing manouvers etc. That can only be done by racing. Maybe that's what Valentino is doing. He could be developing the Yamaha and his skills for future races with Stoner so he will have an idea of how to pass him and what tricks he could use. That's been proven to work well in past years.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Louise @ May 23 2007, 09:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hang on, MotoGP has changed? Well of course. They've switched from 990cc to 800cc, clearly a change in the sport.
Previously, battles with Biaggi and Gibernau were on 990's, and probably 500's. So, battles with more powerful bikes was what Rossi was used to. Going onto 800's, smaller bikes with an obvious disadvantage for Rossi. The new bikes are ideal for Stoner and Pedrosa because they are the perfect size for them. Like Hayden, Rossi is taller and look like they're riding pocket bikes. So that's why Rossi has changed. Maybe not in a good way so far, but there hasn't been a lot of races for Rossi to prove that he can get used to the new 800. Having a bike that he's not used to and not fitting onto well will have to allow Rossi to become familiar with the bike, as all of the taller riders do. Once Rossi has become familiar with the bike, he will be able to develop new strategies of passing manouvers etc. That can only be done by racing. Maybe that's what Valentino is doing. He could be developing the Yamaha and his skills for future races with Stoner so he will have an idea of how to pass him and what tricks he could use. That's been proven to work well in past years.

Well i wasn't talking only about the change to 800cc but since you said so much about them i will explain why i disagree with you. You mention the advantages you think that riders like Stoner and Rossi have, but i don't think they do have an advantage. None of the riders have ridden 800's before, and despite all the talk of the 250 style, they are still closer to a motogp bike than a tiny two stroke. So Rossi's recent experience is plenty valuable changing to the new era. Additionally, Rossi has a team and bike built around him and we know he is one of the best development riders in the world. Stoner on the other hand is in a brand new time, building new relationships and riding his third completely different bike in three years. All the riders have had the same amount of time to familiarize themselves and at his best Rossi was undoubtedly the most versatile and adaptable rider, but maybe he hasn't adapted as well as the others this time?

No,no,no!! Can't you see Rossi is a sore looser? All he can do is whining and blaming his tyres! And don't you ever start such thread again cause Toni Elias will come and get you!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tinks @ May 23 2007, 11:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i think its ridiclous for people to count out the 7 times world champion when were only 5 races into the season.
Was this topic really necessary, it seems you could have easily voiced your opinion on one of the many topics already sort of dedicated to what you had to say. Anyway, ok, I'll play along.

I'm not really sure what you are aiming for or asking, if anything, in the topic title, but judging from your entry, I see you need a bit of reinforcement about Rossi's current state. So here is my take.

Rossi is still the man to beat. He is not the best rider at the moment, Casey and maybe Hopkins are (through in Pedrosa if you will). Casey because he is flawless, Hopkins because he gets allot out of his package. Rossi may be second best if you like. But like I said, it’s at the moment.

Perhaps in your topic titled: Valentino, (and not much else) you wanted to here people reinforce or recall many of his great on track accomplishments. Well then yes, he is one of the most successful riders ever. Not the most ever, or the best ever, but certainly in the top three.

Not allot of people are saying he's washed up. So don't get all-defensive. But in that connotation, the idea, of where he is in his career at this moment in time, must be certainly past the halfway point. Would you agree? Or do you think he will win other 5 World Championships? (Not counting his lower class title by design). If you say, no; then the conclusion must be he is past the half waypoint, and so to that I would say he is past his prime. I know it must be difficult for you to accept this, but us human beings have this thing called a life-span. Well there is also this concept of an effective-athlete-span. (Think of the female Olympic gymnast; notice you don't see any 27 year olds winning the gold metal too often.) Its just the reality, it no disrespect to your boy, he's only human, like the rest of us mortals. He is not better than he use to be. Period.

Perhaps your topic title (which is fairly vague) tried to attract comments on a prediction of the season. Well then, he has a great chance to win the title. He is the man to beat. And everybody is trying to beat him. At the moment, only one rider is doing this consistently--Stoner. It’s only a third of the season in, anything can happen. Any of the top 5 riders still have a realistic chance at winning the title. The probabilities are most with the two top guys at the moment. But a few DNFs, injuries, or equipment failures on any of the top 5 guys can dramatically change all that. Who knows, even Hayden could win the title again--this is not a joke; it’s just that motor racing is very uncertain, and just like the race in La Mans, things can change very quickly.

Does this hit what you were aiming for?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 23 2007, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi is almost always a good sportsman, and often very gracious in both victory and defeat.
I know you qualified it with the word "almost" but I think "gracious" and a "good sportsman" are debatable.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 23 2007, 10:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All the riders have had the same amount of time to familiarize themselves and at his best Rossi was undoubtedly the most versatile and adaptable rider, but maybe he hasn't adapted as well as the others this time?

In what way do you think he hasn't adapted? I'm curious as the difference in 800 riding vs 990 is corner speed and corner entry.
Is there anything at all missing there from his part? I thought we all could agree that he has been fastest around the corners this year?

One could argue that he has done too many mistakes, but one has to be very carefull to weigh these mistakes against the effort made to achive the near impossible task to pass a faster bike.

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WATCH OUT - 1) THE YAM IS OUTCLASSED ON SPEED BY THE DUC - 2) THE YAM HANDLES BETTER, BUT THE TIRES ARE NOT GREAT, 3) LORIS IS NOT CUTTING IT, SO - MY BET FOR 2008 - ROSSI ON A RED ITALIAN BIKE - THEN WE'LL SEE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ptk50 @ May 23 2007, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>THEN WE'LL SEE !
Then we'll see what?

I think Tom's statement about Rossi not having the same edge as before has some validity. When you have been so successful for so long and beaten so many other excellent riders it is inevitable that your desire will be diminished to a degree. I must also add that we have not seen the best of Rossi or the Yamaha this season. He is in second place in the championship so far. I think if Rossi, Yahama, and Michelin get their act together we will see better results from them. In the meantime Rossi has legions of fans, so a few detractors only make for more amusing discussion. Personally I laugh at some of the posts trying to diminish Rossi's accomplishments. There is an old saying that goes something like this: "If everyone loves you then you are not trying hard enough". Nuff said.

The way I see it is, that since joining the premier class, Vale raised the bar a notch again. Every few years, somebody, be Vale, Doohan, Rainey, Roberts Snr....I could go on, gives the class a kick up the arse. The other riders have to raise their game to live with them, and so it goes on. Last season, for a number of reasons, it didnt work for him, this season, the Stoner/Ducati/Bridgestone combo has taken it up another gear. I dont believe we have seen the last of Rossi, but I would be surprised to see him dominate the way he has in previous seasons again.


There is a long way to go this year, lets just see how the season pans out.

The big thing to remember, is that Stoner is the first guy to beat him head to head regularly. That is a big turnaround this season. I'm interested to see how Vale reacts to this. He's making mistakes, and he's making the wrong call on tyres, but I dont believe he wont bounce back and remind us of the rider he is.

Remember (or Google if you are one of the"more knowledgable" posters on here) 1992, Doohan looked unbeatable, but, Assen turned his season around, and it was Wayne who took the title.

Pete




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ May 23 2007, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Tom's statement about Rossi not having the same edge as before has some validity. When you have been so successful for so long and beaten so many other excellent riders it is inevitable that your desire will be diminished to a degree. I must also add that we have not seen the best of Rossi or the Yamaha this season. He is in second place in the championship so far. I think if Rossi, Yahama, and Michelin get their act together we will see better results from them. In the meantime Rossi has legions of fans, so a few detractors only make for more amusing discussion. Personally I laugh at some of the posts trying to diminish Rossi's accomplishments. There is an old saying that goes something like this: "If everyone loves you then you are not trying hard enough". Nuff said.


Very well put buddy

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ May 24 2007, 12:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Tom's statement about Rossi not having the same edge as before has some validity. When you have been so successful for so long and beaten so many other excellent riders it is inevitable that your desire will be diminished to a degree.

That is a strong point, but it's a long time since he had won all the series and then some. So if that causes a motivation failure shouldn't that have apeard a long time ago?

I don't know what's driving that man, but for some reason it seems that he still want evey win he can possibly get. And to me he looks as motivated as ever this year.

the way i see it is , nothing and nowone lasts forever.
IF and thats a BIG IF rossi has past his best then thats just the way it is, ive injoyed watching him since 97 when he was a fresh faced kid and im gratful to him for all the entertainment he has given me, love him or loath him you must admit he rased the racing stakes with all the records he has set and broken,imo he also put a bit of fun into the sport.
having said all of that i personaly dont think he is past it quite yet and my money is still on him to win the championship,if not this year he will next year. after all he has never won a championship in his first year always his second year and this is his first 800 year. i dont think he is past it because of the person who is beating him, i will give all props to stoner and ducati for the winning package they have put together, i bet they even suprised themselves.
just think about it, stoner was not a class rider, it has even been said prior to this season that he was not fit to be in the series and here he is right at the top. before all the rossi haters and stoner fans pile into me thinking im taking glory from stoner, im not im just saying the package all came together perfectly so far, rider doing his job with perfect rides, tyres performing 100% and the ducati team/bike really uping the stakes. as apposed to rossi making some costly mistakes, bike lacking the power needed and tyres running second best to stones, motogp is a team sport and ducati are working as a team