Tyre Wars...

OH I was wondering why guys like Lozza, Dovi, Toser could just get on and go so well .....

it was the tyres .... Oh I see now ........

whereas last year their "focus spot" was on their top rider ..... Oh I see now


How come nothings changed then?

Stoner ...... on Bridgestone .... in front of the top two michelins ..... sounds so 07 to me.

Rossi ..... on bridgestones ...... has dropped even further in performance.

I think the riders got the best also last year. It wasn't only the over night tires that diasapeard but also some tons of tires. This gave the factories more than enough capasity to build all the tires requested. There is still one sort of favorism though: What bikes do the tire manufacturers use for the development? Those bikes used, and those riders that got their ear wil gain the most of the development. Last year I suspect that Rossi felt Michelin were working to closely together with an other team, and considering the results and trouble he didn't like that. This year he is most certainly at best number two in the ranks, ducati got all the favors (and all previous development work, so nothing foul there). But the main equalizer is that the tire representative at each team can probably get all the tires he want for the weekend, again due to the strict limitation of numbers. Even if they know exact what tire they want to use for the whole weekend they can't fill their alotment with that tire, they have to put in quite a few extras for the possibility of changing wether. So each team doesn't pick many of the same tire, and so there is enough for every one. At least for michelin it should be like that. Bridgestone got an extra rider after last season and that will suposedly give them capasity problems.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 14 2008, 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think ...


Haha, I knew a thread about tires would bring Babel out of the wood work. Welcome back. I see you've found a thread that you have a wealth of "knowledge and experience" in buddy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 14 2008, 06:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner ...... on Bridgestone .... in front of the top two michelins ..... sounds so 07 to me.

Rossi ..... on bridgestones ...... has dropped even further in performance.
Hey Berry,

We already have about 18 Stoner vs Rossi threads going. I'm pretty sure the guy who started this thread wasn't trying to start another one of those.

Actually maybe Edwards was right ...... maybe when Rossi left all the other Michelin guys will get a chance at "the good stuff".


But in reality, I don't see any "shift" yet, how has a "shift" manifested itself?

This to date seems just another thread started on a false assumption

How is Michelin different .... show me the results that show that ..... because as things go so far the results are just more of the same..

The move by Rossi to bridgestone has proven also, to date, its not the tyres. In fact if you analyse Rossi's performance to date the Bridgestones look worse than Michelin were last year.

There are no results that back the Michelin improvement yet ..... just assumptions.

Are you guys saying that the fact Lorenzo went well ... and Rossi went poorly then it shows Michelin have improved? ...... that a very long bow to draw...

How about we see results that show an improvement yet ..... then we can comment ..... but to take results that show no shift ... then say things are better ...... well thats bound to be wrong. So why follow such a lead?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 15 2008, 03:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Haha, I knew a thread about tires would bring Babel out of the wood work. Welcome back. I see you've found a thread that you have a wealth of "knowledge and experience" in buddy.

And again we can enjoy one of Jumkies insightful posts full of facts and sound judgements regarding the motorcycling sport.

Anyway, true enough, there are so many treads where there is nothing but utter ........ right now so finding a tread even worthy of start reading is hard enough, but you must have missed something as I've been around a few days after sick-leave and work-travel. Even so it's been more than a little amusing to see your posts regarding Haydens bike. Combined paranoia and backpedaling at the same time is a true art, and you certainly master it close to perfection.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 15 2008, 05:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually maybe Edwards was right ...... maybe when Rossi left all the other Michelin guys will get a chance at "the good stuff".


But in reality, I don't see any "shift" yet, how has a "shift" manifested itself?

This to date seems just another thread started on a false assumption

How is Michelin different .... show me the results that show that ..... because as things go so far the results are just more of the same..

The move by Rossi to bridgestone has proven also, to date, its not the tyres. In fact if you analyse Rossi's performance to date the Bridgestones look worse than Michelin were last year.

There are no results that back the Michelin improvement yet ..... just assumptions.

Are you guys saying that the fact Lorenzo went well ... and Rossi went poorly then it shows Michelin have improved? ...... that a very long bow to draw...

How about we see results that show an improvement yet ..... then we can comment ..... but to take results that show no shift ... then say things are better ...... well thats bound to be wrong. So why follow such a lead?


Ducati and Capirossi worked for two years in close touch with the Japanese manufacturer in order to make the Bridgestones work for their machine. With Stoner's extraordinary skills the whole package has moved to another level, but it was already a very competitive package in 2006.

The others who use Bridgestones have not, IMO, had the same level of good development as Ducati - first because they lacked the really good riders able to do this job. This is no doubt one of the reasons why Suzuki was happy to take Capi onboard, even if evidently he is at the end of his career.

Rossi no doubt has his work cut for him with this switch to Bridgestones - I think he may have understimated it a bit, but hey, let us not underestimate him and Burgess and Yamaha. They are bound to improve as the season goes on. The problem is, meanwhile Stoner (and Lorenzo) may build up a good points advantage.

It's a fascinating gamble anyway

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 15 2008, 05:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The move by Rossi to bridgestone has proven also, to date, its not the tyres. In fact if you analyse Rossi's performance to date the Bridgestones look worse than Michelin were last year.
Hard to "analyse" one performance and prove that "it wasn't the tyres" last year, or that the Stones look worse for Rossi than Michelin last year. Especially as this one particular race bore no resemblance this year (cold/night) to last year (hot/day). Let's wait a little before making such strong statements.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Mar 15 2008, 02:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hard to "analyse" one performance and prove that "it wasn't the tyres" last year, or that the Stones look worse for Rossi than Michelin last year. Especially as this one particular race bore no resemblance this year (cold/night) to last year (hot/day). Let's wait a little before making such strong statements.
I agree. The conditions at qatar suited michelin. I think rossi changed because of the apparent performance advantage of the bridgestone hard tyres, not the softer tyres, and I think they will work to his advantage at many tracks. Ducati are saying stoner used a different tyre than the other bridgestone runners, ostensibly last year's tyre, but bridgestone equally with michelin had the opportunity to cook a tailor-made tyre for stoner based on the previous week's testing if they so desired.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Mar 16 2008, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hard to "analyse" one performance and prove that "it wasn't the tyres" last year, or that the Stones look worse for Rossi than Michelin last year. Especially as this one particular race bore no resemblance this year (cold/night) to last year (hot/day). Let's wait a little before making such strong statements.

Well there was testing as well.

However ........ Bridgestone had trouble at Qatar?

Bridgestone won Qatar in 2007, 2nd and 3rd Mich.

Bridgestone won Qatar in 2008, 2nd and 3rd Mich.

only when you get to 4th place and lower do things change here and there.

Hardly any monumental change.


Rossi changed to Bridgestones and went worse, Stoner actually won the race by more this year as well.

I agree its very little to go on to date, but this should also be remembered when stories of Michelins sudden improvement are touted. Especially when that small sample of results to date has shown that things are pretty much just as they seemed last year.

These "stories" of Michelins improvement, rather than real results are mere convenience, they give "comfort" explanations for why Lorenzo mysteriously did so well, and the other rookies too in reality. But well in comparison to whom? ......Rossi. Thus not detracting from the ideology that Rossi is, in the eyes of those seeking "comfort", still the best rider out there. Its a very questionable assumption as it merely assumes the rookies should not have beaten the old school guys. And in assumes that Rossi is still the best. Even though it all cannot be backed by the results to date.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 15 2008, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi changed to Bridgestones and went worse, Stoner actually won the race by more this year as well.
Whilst I agree that stoner's performance whether due to bike/tyres/being the chosen one of god or whatever is ominous, you surely can't really think that the first ever night race at temperatures 25 degrees celsius less than last year doesn't constitute unusual circumstances and is directly comparable with performances at last year's race?. I think you are indulging in the endemic australian tradition of stirring as you often do.

However, I too am sceptical that there is good evidence that michelin have made any great advance, which would make rossi's decision to change smart.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 15 2008, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whilst I agree that stoner's performance whether due to bike/tyres/being the chosen one of god or whatever is ominous, you surely can't really think that the first ever night race at temperatures 25 degrees celsius less than last year doesn't constitute unusual circumstances and is directly comparable with performances at last year's race?. I think you are indulging in the endemic australian tradition of stirring as you often do.

However, I too am sceptical that there is good evidence that michelin have made any great advance, which would make rossi's decision to change smart.
Well said

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cangaceiro @ Mar 15 2008, 02:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>- Michelin tyres used to be very narrow focussed. Pre-rule change, this advantaged Michelin.
- Bridgestone tyres had a broader focus. Post-rule change, this advantaged Bridgestone.
- Michelin used to be able to exercise an excessive influence on who could win pre-2007 (when the other brands were less competitive). Yes, this did help Rossi!
- Michelin used to give their best tyres to a very short list of factory riders (Rossi incl). I think this was bad for the sport.
- Since the rule changes & Stoner's win last year, Michelin have had to shift focus.
- <u>This shift is going to be good for non-factory Michelin riders</u>.welcome canga, all sound observations but kinda preaching to the converted. sure, edwards predicted it would get better for all the michelin guys, and it seems to be that way but it's no shock. so far so good, you would think, BUT for michelin to simply 'change' the way they make tyres to work in a broader range of conditions is a much easier thing to say than to convincingly deliver on a regular basis, even before you take into account that teams have to pick the right ones in their allocation in the first place. ducati/bridgestone have busted their balls since the beginning to figure out how to beat michelin, and it's just about taken them that long. it's that which makes me think that michelin are some ways off returning the compliment just yet, the cards are stacked very heavily in bridgestone's favour. they've got very good at winning with what they bring. michelin have only been doing it for a year.

it's early on but it looks very much like it will be a honda/yamaha battle to reach the same pace as stoner, who has moved things to another level, with tyres playing a major role. ironically, this leaves a certain italian in almost the same boat as the one he jumped from, except to make matters worse he is bridgestone's yamaha lone ranger and only has half the data he had in the past to help him and his crew make the whole thing work. i can't wait to see if michelin really get it together with the new rules, the increase in allocation will help edwards and his new buddies. seeing how rossi goes against stoner when the tyres work for him will be interesting. seeing a whole fleet of michelin riders staying at the front for entire races will be even better. 2008 will be a tyre war. is that good? hope so of course.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skid @ Mar 15 2008, 06:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>welcome canga, all sound observations but kinda preaching to the converted. sure, edwards predicted it would get better for all the michelin guys, and it seems to be that way but it's no shock. so far so good, you would think, BUT for michelin to simply 'change' the way they make tyres to work in a broader range of conditions is a much easier thing to say than to convincingly deliver on a regular basis, even before you take into account that teams have to pick the right ones in their allocation in the first place. ducati/bridgestone have busted their balls since the beginning to figure out how to beat michelin, and it's just about taken them that long. it's that which makes me think that michelin are some ways off returning the compliment just yet, the cards are stacked very heavily in bridgestone's favour. they've got very good at winning with what they bring. michelin have only been doing it for a year.

it's early on but it looks very much like it will be a honda/yamaha battle to reach the same pace as stoner, who has moved things to another level, with tyres playing a major role. ironically, this leaves a certain italian in almost the same boat as the one he jumped from, except to make matters worse he is bridgestone's yamaha lone ranger and only has half the data he had in the past to help him and his crew make the whole thing work. i can't wait to see if michelin really get it together with the new rules, the increase in allocation will help edwards and his new buddies. seeing how rossi goes against stoner when the tyres work for him will be interesting. seeing a whole fleet of michelin riders staying at the front for entire races will be even better. 2008 will be a tyre war. is that good? hope so of course.
Good points, but I tend to feel that being the only Yam on Stones will not be a particular disadvantage to Rossi. Remember what Edwards said regarding Rossi wanting a completely different style of tyre to the other Michelin runners. This, if true, would have meant that Michelin needed to split development between tyres for Rossi and tyres for the others. It would also have meant that the only effective tyre data Rossi had with Michelin was his own. This would mean, assuming he can get the bike setup to use a tyre similar to Stoner, that he could be much better off with the Stones. Time will tell.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 16 2008, 04:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>However, I too am sceptical that there is good evidence that michelin have made any great advance, which would make rossi's decision to change smart.

Except that folk seem to have forgotten the main question from last season ........ "are the Michelins broken?" .... especially since there was that glaring anomally of Stoner who was the only Bridgestone going well.

Rossi going to Bridgestone was going to answer that question one way or the other......

what has happened to date in 08? ....... Rossi is now going worse ....... would seem to suggest wel ok the Michelins were fine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 15 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Except that folk seem to have forgotten the main question from last season ........ "are the Michelins broken?" .... especially since there was that glaring anomally of Stoner who was the only Bridgestone going well.

Rossi going to Bridgestone was going to answer that question one way or the other......

what has happened to date in 08? ....... Rossi is now going worse ....... would seem to suggest wel ok the Michelins were fine.
So stoner being regularly beaten in qualifying by people he beats easily in the race has nothing to do with tyres either?

the difference is that michelin with thier number 1 whinger could not fly in tires over night specificly for rossi#1 whinger. and the other michelin riders were left in the cold