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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Aug 4 2009, 11:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Another fact loaded post by the infamous berry
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Thank you Rog. .. glad to see you have finally got enough nouse to accept it
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I look forward to the day when I can see at least a leaning towards a post with a fact from yourself
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (is200 @ Aug 5 2009, 01:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I seem to remember hearing, i cant remember from where (so take it with a grain of salt) that Casey uses a lot of rear brake when he gets on the gas. Basically he uses it as a bit of manual traction control.

Not sure if any of you remember Phillip Island in 07 (i think) where his rear brakes locked up between the Hay Shed and Lukey Heights. When i first met casey i asked him about that and he said that the disc warped as he was riding his brakes. Something to think about at least.
i wouldn't swear to it but i didn't think carbon brake discs could warp ??
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Parc Ferme @ Aug 4 2009, 10:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't know what the solution is... maybe a control ECU or let teams running no-TC-bikes to have 1000cc or 1200cc or something. That sounds like a recipe for some beautiful chaos.
I like these ideas. And Dorna has been thinking along similar lines with the idea of 1000cc production spec engines being allowed. Granted the Flamini's were non too pleased with the idea. In the end, for the series to survive I think they need to open it up to live up to the idea of prototype. Allow multiple ways of making a two wheeled machine go around a track as fast as possible. Clearly the promoters and manufacturers have no interest in safety as the lap times have been getting faster and we see higher top speeds as well over the 990cc formula.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bootsakah @ Aug 5 2009, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I like these ideas. And Dorna has been thinking along similar lines with the idea of 1000cc production spec engines being allowed. Granted the Flamini's were non too pleased with the idea. In the end, for the series to survive I think they need to open it up to live up to the idea of prototype. Allow multiple ways of making a two wheeled machine go around a track as fast as possible. Clearly the promoters and manufacturers have no interest in safety as the lap times have been getting faster and we see higher top speeds as well over the 990cc formula.
Turbo's , superchargers, gas turbine engines ,electric. anything goes = true prototypes and cheaper power
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Aug 5 2009, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thank you Rog. .. glad to see you have finally got enough nouse to accept it
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I look forward to the day when I can see at least a leaning towards a post with a fact from yourself
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it would be wasted on you mate .
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Aug 6 2009, 04:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i wouldn't swear to it but i didn't think carbon brake discs could warp ??

It was actually a wet race, so i think they were running steel discs.

Either way i am sot sure about the possibility of CF warping but it is a heat cured material, so if it was faulty its not out of the realm of possibility eitheer (my technical knowledge is really average)
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (is200 @ Aug 6 2009, 12:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It was actually a wet race, so i think they were running steel discs.

Either way i am sot sure about the possibility of CF warping but it is a heat cured material, so if it was faulty its not out of the realm of possibility eitheer (my technical knowledge is really average)
Im pretty sure Pi 07 was dry so they would have used the carbon discs . steel discs can warp although unlikely but not carbon. must have been another race you spoke to him. What other races did you go to and speak with him ?
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looks dry in these vids, unless it was a mixed weather type day
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tlrwinder @ Aug 4 2009, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>True, indeed. I cannot see how CS can say that he doesn't much use the TC, as the throttle graphs gave us the whole story. Hell, even Rossi was cracking the throttle wide open, albeit not as aggressively as Casey...

They had a Canadian guy on Eurosport who was an ex-Kawasaki engineer and ex-team Roberts engineer. He said that the Ducati suffers from "turbo lag".

I don't know how severe it is, but this engineer seemed to think that the Ducati had a really poor "connection" to the rear wheel and that the electronics decided how much throttle the riders should be inputting. It isn't traction control from what I gathered, just another whack fuel mapping system.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Aug 6 2009, 12:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Im pretty sure Pi 07 was dry so they would have used the carbon discs . steel discs can warp although unlikely but not carbon. must have been another race you spoke to him. What other races did you go to and speak with him ?

Videos removed to save space - Gaz

looks dry in these vids, unless it was a mixed weather type day


Roger - there were wet/damp sessions at PI in 2007 - could IS be referring to CS's wet sessions as CS did crash in practice at the Hayshed/Lukey Heights?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (is200 @ Aug 5 2009, 12:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not sure if any of you remember Phillip Island in 07 (i think) where his rear brakes locked up between the Hay Shed and Lukey Heights. When i first met casey i asked him about that and he said that the disc warped as he was riding his brakes. Something to think about at least.







Gaz
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Aug 5 2009, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i wouldn't swear to it but i didn't think carbon brake discs could warp ??
i am fairly sure he is talking about the rear disc which is IIRC always steel, no matter whether wet or dry because it doesnt get as much use as the front discs and therefore would not reach operating temp.

problem solved, next?

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Aug 6 2009, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i am fairly sure he is talking about the rear disc which is IIRC always steel, no matter whether wet or dry because it doesnt get as much use as the front discs and therefore would not reach operating temp.

problem solved, next?

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your right, the rear brakes don't get as much use as the fronts but i thought the rear was also carbon to keep the unsprung weight down and to reduce gyroscopic effect ??, but either way if he used the back break in the rain so the extent it would warp im surprised he didn't wear flat spots on his rear tyre . so you see you kinda contradicted yourself.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bootsakah @ Aug 5 2009, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I like these ideas. And Dorna has been thinking along similar lines with the idea of 1000cc production spec engines being allowed. Granted the Flamini's were non too pleased with the idea. In the end, for the series to survive I think they need to open it up to live up to the idea of prototype. Allow multiple ways of making a two wheeled machine go around a track as fast as possible. Clearly the promoters and manufacturers have no interest in safety as the lap times have been getting faster and we see higher top speeds as well over the 990cc formula.

It'd be nice to see a rule that forced factory teams to sell their old bikes to private teams for a fixed cost. There should be at least 4, if not 6 or more of each manufacturers' bikes on the grid. Still not sure how I feel about allowing production parts into a prototype class (Moto2 included), but who knows.

I feel you on the "multiple ways of making a two wheeled machine go around a track" but I wonder if we can ever go back there? We're now at a place of such advanced development with regard to what is the best way to get power out of an X by Y stroke engine in a L,V,I configuration with X number of cylinders. I don't think we'll see anyone trying to build a 3 cylinder or 6 cylinder and race it against the factories. Of course, Honda built a V5 which sounded totally weird to me when I first heard about it and it turned out to be the best bike in the world so wtf do I know. Most of the advances are now tires and computers and "getting the power down". I fear that what you are looking for is still happening, but it's happening on laptops so we, the fans, don't see it.

EDIT: I have to correct myself. Without sounding too cynical, we, the fans, DO see the result and the result is .... racing.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Aug 6 2009, 04:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>your right, the rear brakes don't get as much use as the fronts but i thought the rear was also carbon to keep the unsprung weight down and to reduce gyroscopic effect ??, but either way if he used the back break in the rain so the extent it would warp im surprised he didn't wear flat spots on his rear tyre . so you see you kinda contradicted yourself.
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rear discs on any bikes are smaller diameter and thinner than front ones. this means that overuse will mean they are much more prone to overheating (due to less mass) when abused. end result is usually just brake fade but discs can warp even on motogp bikes.
yes, you could put a carbon disc on the rear but it would never reach operating temp for very long and so it would be useless. easier to just remove the brake altogether.
i would also imagine that rather than putting full power through the rear, he would be trail braking most of the time hence the disc warpage. also probably why he didnt destroy his rear tyre.

so no, i didnt contradict myself....

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as some kind of proof, read the brake specs for the M1 in this article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZR-M1
this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_GSV-R
this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducati_Desmosedici
and this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_ZX-RR

cant find any info for the rc212v

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Aug 6 2009, 09:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>rear discs on any bikes are smaller diameter and thinner than front ones. this means that overuse will mean they are much more prone to overheating (due to less mass) when abused. end result is usually just brake fade but discs can warp even on motogp bikes.
yes, you could put a carbon disc on the rear but it would never reach operating temp for very long and so it would be useless. easier to just remove the brake altogether.
i would also imagine that rather than putting full power through the rear, he would be trail braking most of the time hence the disc warpage. also probably why he didnt destroy his rear tyre.

so no, i didnt contradict myself....

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as some kind of proof, read the brake specs for the M1 in this article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZR-M1
this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_GSV-R
this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducati_Desmosedici
and this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_ZX-RR

cant find any info for the rc212v

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Ok i will concede that the rear discs are stainless and probably not carbon altho i do "think" i remember carbon on nickys rc212v, but he is known to use a lot more rear than most other riders. I still think it strange to warp one especially in wet conditions. It must have been pushbike disc thin.
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What I really do not understand is how any MotoGP rider can say he did not have TC cuts until recently??? No TC cuts in 2007 and 2008?!
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I'm pretty sure I heard TC cuts with my own ears, coming from Stoner's Ducati (and practically all other bikes as well, more or less) both in 2007 and 2008. Mah!
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Aug 7 2009, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What I really do not understand is how any MotoGP rider can say he did not have TC cuts until recently??? No TC cuts in 2007 and 2008?!
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I'm pretty sure I heard TC cuts with my own ears, coming from Stoner's Ducati (and practically all other bikes as well, more or less) both in 2007 and 2008. Mah!
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No doubt TC was at work on stoners bike way earlier. The very characteristic sound when TC start working are just to obvious to overlook. Question is, does he feel a power cut when that happen?
I suspect not. I feel a slight unresponsiveness as (Im guessing here) one or two cylinders start cutting out but probably he still have some feedback through the others.
Only when the slide gets real bad the system starts truly overriding the rider input.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Aug 7 2009, 08:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What I really do not understand is how any MotoGP rider can say he did not have TC cuts until recently??? No TC cuts in 2007 and 2008?!
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I'm pretty sure I heard TC cuts with my own ears, coming from Stoner's Ducati (and practically all other bikes as well, more or less) both in 2007 and 2008. Mah!
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Of course it was working-It was working its ... off!!! CS is just giving us more-it was me not the bike/tyres BS.......does anyone remember Post race China 07, Chris V said in an interview 'I can't believe the power of that Ducati, Loris would just blast past me everytime on the straight, very frustrating!'
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Aug 6 2009, 10:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Im pretty sure Pi 07 was dry so they would have used the carbon discs . steel discs can warp although unlikely but not carbon. must have been another race you spoke to him. What other races did you go to and speak with him ?
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looks dry in these vids, unless it was a mixed weather type day

I dont know if i typed 07 as i have not gone back to the first page to check, but it would have been 04 or 03, he was with LCR in the 250's the crash was whilst he was leading or coming second in the race. I didnt actually ask him about it until a couple of years later at his sister in laws wedding, the first time i got to meet him properly. I was suprised he remembered it as i was like, hey i remember...and he just rattled the whole scenario off and explained it. Was very interesting.

I guess this further discussion makes the point not as pertinent but either way definatley a wetish race.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (is200 @ Aug 10 2009, 05:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I dont know if i typed 07 as i have not gone back to the first page to check, but it would have been 04 or 03, he was with LCR in the 250's the crash was whilst he was leading or coming second in the race. I didnt actually ask him about it until a couple of years later at his sister in laws wedding, the first time i got to meet him properly. I was suprised he remembered it as i was like, hey i remember...and he just rattled the whole scenario off and explained it. Was very interesting.

I guess this further discussion makes the point not as pertinent but either way definatley a wetish race.
no worries mate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>(is200 @ Aug 5 2009, 01:35 AM)
I seem to remember hearing, i cant remember from where (so take it with a grain of salt) that Casey uses a lot of rear brake when he gets on the gas. Basically he uses it as a bit of manual traction control.

Not sure if any of you remember Phillip Island in 07 (i think) where his rear brakes locked up between the Hay Shed and Lukey Heights. When i first met casey i asked him about that and he said that the disc warped as he was riding his brakes. Something to think about at least.
 

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