Tires Tires Tires

povol · Apr 19, 2014

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2014/04/18/end_in_sight_for_bridgestone_as_motogp_t.html

As i said before, if these teams want more choices, ante up some funds. If this article is anywhere near close to being factual, here is what i would do if i were Bridgestone. IF, i wanted to stay as the supplyer of free tires to Moto GP, i would tell Dorna to go .... themselves. Unless you want to pay for more choices, this is what you are going to get. We can make a fantastic tire that will not give up performance over the course of the race, we will no longer sacrifice our reputation for whining ... fans who say our product is to good and is ....... up the show. If you dont like that, pays us for more options or find someone else. If they dont want to stay as supplier of free tires, i will be damned if i would pull Dorna's ... out of the fire by agreeing to supply tires for an extra year so my replacement can get their .... together.

rezonator636 · Apr 19, 2014

What I dislike about this proposal is the fact that Dorna wants the new tires to degrade over the course of the race, in order to force the riders into tire management. WTF? That's exactly what happened this weekend and it made the race worse, no better. If Dorna wants ...... tires that fall off midway through the race, they don't need to look for a new supplier.

rezonator636 · Apr 19, 2014

Double post

povol · Apr 19, 2014

rezonator636

3719201397924633

What I dislike about this proposal is the fact that Dorna wants the new tires to degrade over the course of the race, in order to force the riders into tire management. WTF? That's exactly what happened this weekend and it made the race worse, no better. If Dorna wants ...... tires that fall off midway through the race, they don't need to look for a new supplier.

Bridgestone makes an excellent tire that doesnt fall off at all. Last weekend was a one off phenomenon that still doesnt have an answer. Was it ...... tires, or were some of the teams responsible for dicking around with improper psi or unconventional setups. In the 5 plus years that Bridgestone has beeen supplying tires, the Phillip Island debacle is the one big faux pas that so far can be put solely on their shoulders. Not bad if you ask me. Like i said, how do you win when people actually complain that your product is to good.

rezonator636 · Apr 19, 2014

povol

3719221397931416

Bridgestone makes an excellent tire that doesnt fall off at all. Last weekend was a one off phenomenon that still doesnt have an answer. Was it ...... tires, or were some of the teams responsible for dicking around with improper psi or unconventional setups. In the 5 plus years that Bridgestone has beeen supplying tires, the Phillip Island debacle is the one big faux pas that so far can be put solely on their shoulders. Not bad if you ask me. Like i said, how do you win when people actually complain that your product is to good.

Gotta disagree with you here. In the time that Bridgestone has been the sole supplier of tires for MotoGP, I don't recall anyone complaining that the tires were "too good". Quite the opposite, in fact; HRC complained about the tires in 2012, and Yamaha (Lorenzo especially) were vocal about the tires this year. And I don't think that what happened at CotA was that much of a mystery; it's a fast circuit that stresses one side of the tire more than the other, same as Philip Island, and these were the 2013 tires, the same ones that were chewed up at PI. The effects just weren't as extreme.

But again, these are free tires. I wonder how worthwhile it has been for BS to supply tires to every team on the grid (to the tune of 20M+ euro a year), only to get PR horror stories like PI and CotA. That's a lot of money to spend on negative advertising.

povol · Apr 19, 2014

rezonator636

3719231397945480

Gotta disagree with you here. In the time that Bridgestone has been the sole supplier of tires for MotoGP, I don't recall anyone complaining that the tires were "too good". Quite the opposite, in fact; HRC complained about the tires in 2012, and Yamaha (Lorenzo especially) were vocal about the tires this year. And I don't think that what happened at CotA was that much of a mystery; it's a fast circuit that stresses one side of the tire more than the other, same as Philip Island, and these were the 2013 tires, the same ones that were chewed up at PI. The effects just weren't as extreme.

But again, these are free tires. I wonder how worthwhile it has been for BS to supply tires to every team on the grid (to the tune of 20M+ euro a year), only to get PR horror stories like PI and CotA. That's a lot of money to spend on negative advertising.

The bored GP fan has been complaing for years that the Bridgestone's exceptional durability was a major cause for the racing they hate. There was little fall off which allowed whoever was leading to keep pumping out precision laps with no mistakes. In most cases the GP tire is within 7-8 10ths from start to finish, whereas a WSBK tire might fall off as much as 2.5 seconds depending on the track

rezonator636 · Apr 19, 2014

povol

3719241397948397

The bored GP fan has been complaing for years that the Bridgestone's exceptional durability was a major cause for the racing they hate. There was little fall off which allowed whoever was leading to keep pumping out precision laps with no mistakes. In most cases the GP tire is within 7-8 10ths from start to finish, whereas a WSBK tire might fall off as much as 2.5 seconds depending on the track

Fair enough. Looks like BS is getting out of the MotoGP game anyhow, and I don't blame them. They're paying a ton of money to supply tires, and all they're getting in return is bad publicity.

povol · Apr 19, 2014

rezonator636

3719251397949044

Fair enough. Looks like BS is getting out of the MotoGP game anyhow, and I don't blame them. They're paying a ton of money to supply tires, and all they're getting in return is bad publicity.

They do get to plaster their name on everything GP, but i dont know if that offsets being in a no win situation where even when you do good, its bad. I would tell Capirossi where he can stick his demands and make a few myself.

Mick D · Apr 19, 2014

povol

3719241397948397

The bored GP fan has been complaing for years that the Bridgestone's exceptional durability was a major cause for the racing they hate.

WHAT? Pull up that thread for me again Pov. The one where we are all bitchin' that the tyres are too good!

RECENTLY we have had PI 2013, QATAR 2014 and COTA 2014... ALL tyre issues which had relatively simple solutions but... BS!

@Rez - Tyres degrading over the race and tyres chunking and ripping to shreds are NOT the same!

digger · Apr 19, 2014

Assen 2012 rings a bell too

rezonator636 · Apr 19, 2014

Mick D

3719271397962358

WHAT? Pull up that thread for me again Pov. The one where we are all bitchin' that the tyres are too good!

RECENTLY we have had PI 2013, QATAR 2014 and COTA 2014... ALL tyre issues which had relatively simple solutions but... BS!

@Rez - Tyres degrading over the race and tyres chunking and ripping to shreds are NOT the same!

It may not be the same, but the idea of building tires that are designed to fail strikes me as ridiculous. Bridgestone has been building tires that are designed to go the race distance, and these tires have failed spectacularly at times, as you pointed out. Now Dorna wants a manufacturer to make tires that degrade over time, and these tires are supposed to somehow be better than what BS is currently offering?

I'm not a tire technician. If anyone here is, please enlighten me: is it possible to program a tire like you can a computer, so that it loses x amount of traction per lap? And can this tire maintain these characteristics, regardless of the bike/rider/track combination, even at tire-devouring circuits like Philip Island? If the answer is no, then the idea of making a tire with a built-in weakness seems like a fool's errand.

J4rn0 · Apr 20, 2014

Bridgestone built their quality before the single supplier rule, and (ironically) developed their MotoGP technology with Ducati, becoming one of the factors of their 2007 title; then forgot about them to concentrate on the needs of the Japanese manufacturers.

Bridgestone CAN supply excellent tires that last the entire race distance, but they are enjoying a monopoly situation governed by a very weak contract with Dorna, and are not honoring the money they receive with corresponding quantity and quality of supply (even assuming they "only" get their name on all the bikes of the paddock, that's something worth millions).Hope Dorna will sign a better tire supply contract when renewal time comes, either with BS or Dunlop or Pirelli, or Michelin -- or with all of them, because if the single supplier is managed this badly, it's perhaps better to return to a competitive situation.

rezonator636 · Apr 20, 2014

Bridgestone aren't getting any money from Dorna or the teams, though. They are supplying every team in MotoGP for free, and it costs them more than twenty million euro a year to do it. Given both that and the lack of competition, and it's hardly a surprise that BS chooses not to pour an extra ten million (or whatever it costs) into R&D to make a perfect, indestructible race tire.

There's speculation that BS went to the 2013 tire at Austin simply to burn up unused stock, as they wait for their contract with Dorna to expire. Their message seems to be, "suck it, Dorna. We're giving you half-decent tires for free. Let's see if your next manufacturer can do any better."

xx CURVE xx · Apr 20, 2014

Supply free tires to paddock AND pay 20 mil to do it!?? Thats .........

Carmelo and Crew should take a ....... pay cut so the riders can get more tire selection..

J4rn0 · Apr 20, 2014

How can one say that BS are giving tires away for free, when they get all that publicity. Go buy that amount of space on ALL the bikes in the paddock and see how much it costs. Plus, I'm sure that many of their logistics costs, if not all, are covered by Dorna (but they keep this undisclosed).

Bridgestone do not need any new or further R&D to improve on what they are doing now. They already have all tire types figured out and tested (hard body, medium body, soft body, and all kind of hard and soft compounds); but they simply do not produce these types in the necessary variety and quantity and do not bring an optimal choice of them to the tracks. They try to be as stingy as possible, to cash the publicity while spending as little as possible; a very short sighted policy that has already backfired on them several times, with those silly failures.

povol · Apr 20, 2014

J4rn0

3719301397992181

Bridgestone built their quality before the single supplier rule, and (ironically) developed their MotoGP technology with Ducati, becoming one of the factors of their 2007 title; then forgot about them to concentrate on the needs of the Japanese manufacturers.

Bridgestone CAN supply excellent tires that last the entire race distance, but they are enjoying a monopoly situation governed by a very weak contract with Dorna, and are not honoring the money they receive with corresponding quantity and quality of supply (even assuming they "only" get their name on all the bikes of the paddock, that's something worth millions).Hope Dorna will sign a better tire supply contract when renewal time comes, either with BS or Dunlop or Pirelli, or Michelin -- or with all of them, because if the single supplier is managed this badly, it's perhaps better to return to a competitive situation.

You are slowly bur surely recognizing that Bridgestone doesnt get paid to supply tires, just not fully ready to admit it.If its worth it to continue, they will continue. If the bean counters tell them that another 10-15 million euro is not worth the investment and time, they will leave. I still say i would not be used by Dorna in doing a 1 year contract so my replacement can get their .... together

rezonator636 · Apr 20, 2014

J4rn0

3719331398020280

How can one say that BS are giving tires away for free, when they get all that publicity. Go buy that amount of space on ALL the bikes in the paddock and see how much it costs. Plus, I'm sure that many of their logistics costs, if not all, are covered by Dorna (but they keep this undisclosed).

Bridgestone do not need any new or further R&D to improve on what they are doing now. They already have all tire types figured out and tested (hard body, medium body, soft body, and all kind of hard and soft compounds); but they simply do not produce these types in the necessary variety and quantity and do not bring an optimal choice of them to the tracks. They try to be as stingy as possible, to cash the publicity while spending as little as possible; a very short sighted policy that has already backfired on them several times, with those silly failures.

According to Krop's article, bringing more tires to the track would "massively increase" the costs of transporting the tires. He doesn't put a number on it, but if that statement is true, then BS is assuming the costs of the transport and logistics. BS has no incentive to increase the tire selection (and their costs) when the current tires are adequately doing the job, and Dorna has no other options. Yes, PI, Qatar, and CotA were debacles, but BS apparently doesn't care. They seem to be going through a break-up period with MotoGP, and are figuring that fixing the negative press the tires are getting isn't worth the cost of doubling the tire selection at each race.

@Povol: if I were Bridgestone and Dorna came to me saying, "supply us for one more year so we can get our new supplier up to speed," I would tell them to go .... themselves. Or, I would say "sure," and give them all my unsold 2014 trackday slicks.

povol · Apr 20, 2014

rezonator636

3719351398024410

According to Krop's article, bringing more tires to the track would "massively increase" the costs of transporting the tires. He doesn't put a number on it, but if that statement is true, then BS is assuming the costs of the transport and logistics. BS has no incentive to increase the tire selection (and their costs) when the current tires are adequately doing the job, and Dorna has no other options. Yes, PI, Qatar, and CotA were debacles, but BS apparently doesn't care. They seem to be going through a break-up period with MotoGP, and are figuring that fixing the negative press the tires are getting isn't worth the cost of doubling the tire selection at each race.

@Povol: if I were Bridgestone and Dorna came to me saying, "supply us for one more year so we can get our new supplier up to speed," I would tell them to go .... themselves. Or, I would say "sure," and give them all my unsold 2014 trackday slicks.

Not sure i would blame Qatar on Bridgestone. Just because a couple of riders crashed doesnt mean the tires were bad. The problem is the time of night that the race is run. They are already talking about trying to move it back at least an hour. Apparently, around 10pm local time is about when the dew starts falling heavily and makes the track moist. PI was all on Bridgestone, im still waiting to hear if the teams were somehow partially responsible for COTA. Like i said before, that looked like cold tear and considering the time frame in which it happened, it sounds like it as well. I will wait to rake them over the coals until something definitive come out.

J4rn0 · Apr 20, 2014

povol

3719341398022805

You are slowly bur surely recognizing that Bridgestone doesnt get paid to supply tires, just not fully ready to admit it.If its worth it to continue, they will continue. If the bean counters tell them that another 10-15 million euro is not worth the investment and time, they will leave. I still say i would not be used by Dorna in doing a 1 year contract so my replacement can get their .... together

You are too slow in recognizing that stickers on MotoGP bikes ARE money...

povol · Apr 20, 2014

N

J4rn0

3719371398029861

You are too slow in recognizing that stickers on MotoGP bikes ARE money...

No, see post #8, i am well aware of what they get for supplying free tires. Like i said, the bean counter will decide if advertising banners and bad publicity offset the cost of supplying tires for free,

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