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This quote says alot

Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Currently, the Twin is much more tuned than the Four. There is a higher degree of freedom, and this makes the current Twin, the 1000cc in race trim, still reasonably competitive with the Four. And what we are discussing and proposing is that we exchange that with the increase of capacity, and with the increase of capacity, we take the occasion to have the unique set of rules, having both the Four and the Twin with the same low level of tuning. In our opinion, a 1200cc Twin will be very similar in performance on the racetrack to a 1000cc Four, but if this is would not be the case, for whatever reason, we are already discussing with the Federation, we are available to talk about a performance handicap, either it is air restrictor or the weight. But we suggested that, and we are discussing, in order that the performance and the cap is kind of with an adjustable mechanism. In order that every three or four races, or whatever, with a mechanism which is agreed by everybody before starting, you can compare the performance, average performance, of the Twins, against the average performance of the Four, and if it's too much, you adjust the balance. In one direction or the other.

Ducati wants what Ducati allways wants,A performance advantage

still reasonably competitive with the Four.[ Still winning races]

In our opinion, a 1200cc Twin will be very similar in performance on the racetrack to a 1000cc Four, but if this is would not be the case, for whatever reason, we are already discussing with the Federation, we are available to talk about a performance handicap.

He says himself a 1200 V Twin will be similar in performance,not equal,but similar.And they are already are dicussing how to restrict the 1200 when it come out and dominates.So again they will fall into the different set of rules that this was supposed to eliminate.
 
What a load of bullsh!t they might aswell bring back the 750s.
I thought WSB was for 1000cc production bikes with a year or so grace from when a bike is no longer made?
This series is a fing joke.
 
Erm it's more exciting than moto gp is at the moment by FAR.

I have heard Ducati's engines last 2000km and cost £50k for a rebuild, while the 4's last 5 times longer and cost about £10 to rebuild.

The Italian brings up good points.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Apr 17 2007, 09:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Erm it's more exciting than moto gp is at the moment by FAR.

That is debatable. And as a motogp fan on a motogp forum i have to disagree, sorry man.
 
Reminds me of the time I went to Le Mans for the 24h because a local rider was racing. Because his team qualified last they were kicked out to make way for a French team on a French bike (voxan) who had failed to qualify and were running about 20 seconds off the pace.
It's not bending the rules it's changing them to benefit themselves. Which no one likes.
 
I wonder what they would really do if WSBK said sorry,we have 4 other manufacturers that will play by the same rules and that will make our life much easier than trying to appease you.
 
It might not be as bad as people (including me) first thought. My understanding of it all, bear in mind I'm no techie, is that the 1200's will be limited in the amount of tuning they can do, alot less than they can do with the 999, so in theory the levels will be set so they should be about equal? It might not be such a bad thing, although they need to manage it right, judging by how the whole 500/990 situation went in GP's.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rgvneil @ Apr 17 2007, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What a load of bullsh!t they might aswell bring back the 750s.
I thought WSB was for 1000cc production bikes with a year or so grace from when a bike is no longer made?
This series is a fing joke.

^^^I agree with you 100%. Ducati needs to be treated like everyone else. Here are the rules, design your bike within these paremeters and race. Whomever adapts the best has the best chance to win the world crown. Ducati makes an inferior product, why else would they break so often and need to have so much money spent to make the work? I dare anyone to test a Ducati and tell me it is better than a Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, or Yahama. In stock trim the 999 is crap. I purchased a K6 Suzuki750, and a k3 Suzuki1000, two helmets, full race suit, boots, jacket for myself and the wife, paid for a years insurance, and made modifications to the 1000. I still paid less for all that, than if I had purchased a 999 (which I test rode, and promptly said no thanks). Earth to Ducati!! Stop trying to create your own rules for the benefit of yourselves only. Racing is supposed to be as fair as possible, if they cave in to Ducati's demands we will be subject to "Ducati Cup-Racing" all over again. I am glad the AMA had the backbone to stand up to Ducati when they tried the same extortion tactics last year. Build a better bike that is less expensive, requires less maintenance, and does not require so much money to tune (privateers!) and you would not have to win by whining and throwing a temper tantrum when you do not get your way. Ducati will be hurt most if they pull out of SBK.
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I've had it with people saying Ducati should stop making an inferior product...I've always said they should be given SOME lee-way as they're such a small factory.

Revenue two years ago:$427,289,000

Honda revenue last year: $84 billion USD

And how much does it cost to design new engines? A lot I imagine. Give them some slack.

I didn't find anyone moaning on the other forum when Honda pussyfooted for an 800 rule on the grounds on safety because one rider got himself killed at a notorious circuit.

Erm... with the speeds achieved with the 800's we could have KEPT the 990's and they'd still be beaten.

/rant over
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 17 2007, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I wonder what they would really do if WSBK said sorry,we have 4 other manufacturers that will play by the same rules and that will make our life much easier than trying to appease you.

they wont race, because they wont have a 1000cc production bike to race
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Apr 18 2007, 08:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've had it with people saying Ducati should stop making an inferior product...I've always said they should be given SOME lee-way as they're such a small factory.

Revenue two years ago:$427,289,000

Honda revenue last year: $84 billion USD

And how much does it cost to design new engines? A lot I imagine. Give them some slack.

I didn't find anyone moaning on the other forum when Honda pussyfooted for an 800 rule on the grounds on safety because one rider got himself killed at a notorious circuit.

Erm... with the speeds achieved with the 800's we could have KEPT the 990's and they'd still be beaten.

/rant over

The rules should not be twisted to help the poorer factories out especially if they are winning already. The rules didnt get changed to help Foggy's team out did they? in fact they went the opposite way. And team Roberts were given no leeway in gp for being a small outfit. If you can't build a competitive bike, you will lose and thats all there is to it.

As the for the GP rule change, Honda obviously were not looking for a technical advantage as all the teams have to comply to the same rules and they gave away a weight limit situation that favoured them and their dominant bike. I think their pushing was more a political move as they needed to be seen to be taking action after the death of Kato.
 
I don't want another disagree fest again, but we have to!
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 18 2007, 08:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1.The rules should not be twisted to help the poorer factories out especially if they are winning already. The rules didnt get changed to help Foggy's team out did they? in fact they went the opposite way. And team Roberts were given no leeway in gp for being a small outfit. If you can't build a competitive bike, you will lose and thats all there is to it.

2.As the for the GP rule change, Honda obviously were not looking for a technical advantage as all the teams have to comply to the same rules and they gave away a weight limit situation that favoured them and their dominant bike. I think their pushing was more a political move as they needed to be seen to be taking action after the death of Kato.

1. I think the rules should benefit the small factories as it benefits the sport in the long term, we get more bikes on the grid and better racing. That is not the current situation, but if I was Pratto Flamminni I would try attract EVERYONE!

2. People die in racing, Dorna should have accepted that, and from what I've read, it was Kato's own fault he crashed, but may he rest in peace.

...

I have an enginious(sp?) idea, let poor teams run 990's, it's not as if they're faster than the 800's.

Imagine that!

thread time
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Apr 18 2007, 09:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't want another disagree fest again, but we have to!
<

1. I think the rules should benefit the small factories as it benefits the sport in the long term, we get more bikes on the grid and better racing. That is not the current situation, but if I was Pratto Flamminni I would try attract EVERYONE!

2. People die in racing, Dorna should have accepted that, and from what I've read, it was Kato's own fault he crashed, but may he rest in peace.

...

I have an enginious(sp?) idea, let poor teams run 990's, it's not as if they're faster than the 800's.

Imagine that!

thread time

1.you make a good point, my problem being that Ducati are so damn successful it seems quite cheeky to ask for more help. Plus i would rather upset ducati who supply only 2 bikes than the Japanease factories who supply 8 or so.

2. I agree that the backlash from Katos accident could be seen as OTT but if nothing was done and another rider lost his life it would look very bad on their part. Plus i think i was a lot to do with Japanease honour, although it hasn't been very conclusive what exactly caused the accident i think that even if its rider error Honda feel a certain amount of responsibility and needed to take some action so as to show that they cared.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rgvneil @ Apr 17 2007, 09:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. What a load of bullsh!t they might aswell bring back the 750s.
2. I thought WSB was for 1000cc production bikes with a year or so grace from when a bike is no longer made?
This series is a fing joke.

1. The 750cc had 33% less diplacemnt of a 1000
The 1000 have a 20% less diplacemnt of a 1200
Maybe the right difference is even less. What I do know is that through other rules and simple physics the twin has a major diadvantage in valve area and RPM limit. To allow them a higher displacement volume is one way to go.

2. It is right now. In different days it has been other volumes.
To me it looks like SBK wants to reflect the sportsbike class for road bikes.
Currently that just changed regarding twins as there are no factory in SBK that produces a 1000cc twin sportsbike. They do however produce a 1100.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 18 2007, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. The 750cc had 33% less diplacemnt of a 1000
The 1000 have a 20% less diplacemnt of a 1200
Maybe the right difference is even less. What I do know is that through other rules and simple physics the twin has a major diadvantage in valve area and RPM limit. To allow them a higher displacement volume is one way to go.

I don't think its as simple as the basic percentages would suggest. In supersport racing the four cylinder bikes use 80% of the displacement used by the twins and they always win. In the old superbike rules the fours were allowed 75% of the twins displacement and always lost. This would suggest that the majic fair number lies somewhere in the middle of those, yet the proposed 1200 rule allows the four cylinder bikes to use 83% of the twins displacement. That suggests that Ducati would be even worse off than they are in supersport which is just not going to be the case, so things are obviously way more complicated.

Also you say that the 1200 rule is a good idea because it should refelct the road bike market, but sureley Ducati should be asking to race an 1100cc bike because thats what they make?

Slightly off topic, but how do you feel about the supersport regs at the moment, they don't seem to give twins too much of a chance but nobody seems to care much?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 18 2007, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Slightly off topic, but how do you feel about the supersport regs at the moment, they don't seem to give twins too much of a chance but nobody seems to care much?

I know the question isn't directed at me but I want to answer it.
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Twins in WSS NEED a bigger capacity, but then it would be plain unfair.

Imagine an 850 twin vs 600 fours... almost 40% more capacity than the fours.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Apr 18 2007, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I know the question isn't directed at me but I want to answer it.
<


Twins in WSS NEED a bigger capacity, but then it would be plain unfair.

Imagine an 850 twin vs 600 fours... almost 40% more capacity than the fours.

Perhaps, but Ducati don't seem that bothered. I think by making there supersort and superbike the same they have a situation where the only people who buy a 749 do so because they can't afford the 999.
 
Ducati are trying to stay in the series with a Twin. Their market is twin’s, they would like to cut the price down on tuning, and they do not want to produce a 4 cylinder version otherwise manufacturing and producing costs for the new bikes could break the company, as twin sales would fall.

BUT they have already produced 50 units of the Motogp bike for the road all they have to do is produce another 150 and they could use this however! We would have a full blown Motogp bike sitting on the WSB grid - This would not be good as it moves the goal posts for everyone else!

I can't decide if 1200cc displacement is good or not!!
 

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