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The Tyre Rule.Debate Burgess a “Big Mistake”

Joined Feb 2007
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Rovrum S,Yorks Eng
Burgess: MotoGP Control Tyre Rule a “Big Mistake”

Rossi crew chief and Eurosport anchor join debate on opposite sides

The deliberations surrounding MotoGP’s decision to switch to a Bridgestone control tyre in 2009 have continued to grow, with prominent voices speaking up for both sides of the argument. Valentino Rossi’s crew chief, Jerry Burgess, told the Italian magazine, Motosprint, that there was no need for the introduction of a new rule and that teams should be able to make up their own minds.

Burgess

However Tony Carter, the MotoGP presenter on Eurosport, writes in his online article on 11 November, “As a race fan, all I want to see is rider against rider, machine against machine. I like the idea of a proper scrap where lesser factors like which type of a particular niche rubber compound by any of three or four manufacturers don't come into it.” The issue is currently the subject of Tyrepress.com’s Question of the Month, provoking similar levels of debate among tyre industry readers

Carter: Tyre rule great for MotoGP

There has been some debate over this one-make tyre rule coming into MotoGP next season, and to be honest I can't really understand why.

It would be fair enough if this was a new concept for two wheels, like when the idea first came in for the World Superbike championship a few years back. But does anyone out there actually think it's a bad thing for the blue-riband class?

As a race fan, all I want to see is rider against rider, machine against machine. I like the idea of a proper scrap where lesser factors like which type of a particular niche rubber compound by any of three or four manufacturers don't come into it.

So this season, with all the speculation going on long before the worst-kept secret in racing was made official, we were subjected to a few racing pundits bemoaning the idea. Some were even on record as saying it was a bad idea because it would mean the series wouldn't be as competitive.

What absolute rubbish.

It might not be as competitive from a marketing point of view, it might not be as interesting to anoraks who can tell you which intermediate compound is right for the two-minute window expected around lap 17 and it might not be as beneficial to anyone not on the right make and grade of tyre that's working better than the rest for any particular session.

But to think like that is, quite frankly, missing the point. By putting all the racers on the rubber it means one thing: close competition.

I admit that when I was first told of the idea of a single tyre rule coming into WSB I also wrote and said that it was going to be a bad idea - but I was very wrong.

What the move gave us was amazingly close racing for the majority of the pack; once the thought of everyone being on the same rubber lost its initial surprise factor and the lap times started coming down, we all realised that one-make tyre rules do make for fine action and close racing.

And while the most anorak of race fans won't like it, another strong factor in why the one-make tyre rule works is one of simplicity. It's easier for the general public to understand what's going on.

Rather than seeing the race from a Bridgestone point of view, or Michelin, or Dunlop, or Chen Shing or whoever, they now see a rider and a bike racing against those around them. All on the same rubber, dealing with the conditions on an equal footing and proving definitively who is best.

Quite why anyone would argue against the move is baffling, especially if it gives us what we want - closer racing in the premier class.
Tony Carter / Eurosport

some good comments are on Carters article

still think personally the one tyre rule is going to hurt MOTOGP and the changes over recent years in MOTOGP give it a F1 feel to me too many peeps meddling in it
THOUGHTS ?

Carter
 
Apart from him being the hated face of BSB and WSB on British Eurosport, he puts across good points( which are basically those of a racing enthusiast).

I know WSB and Motogp are two entirely different series, but look how much more exciting the racing has become since 2004 for WSB. We're in a golden era for SBK (arguably the strongest field ever minus a certain Mr Bayliss) while Moto gp is on the backfoot.

I understand some people love the technical aspect but this is motorcycle racing, not Formula 1. When not one race in 21 years has been decided by less than a second, you know the series is in trouble and needs help.
 
IF and just if mind you "if" the Bridgestone’s offered out last year were consistent (there is some suggestion they were not) then this is the close racing...

Casey and Valentino ran Bridgestone’s, so did Marco, Toni, Westy, Loris, Sylvain, Chris.

Eventually Dani did as well (just after the boycott I think)

Apart from Laguna - where was the close racing at the front promised by the one make?

Okay, Dovi, Jorge, Nicki, Colin JT et al didn't have them.

I think you are betting a lot on a control tyre. The lap speeds didn't slow down at the post season test (Valencia) and the safety aspect is still debatable as 250's have higher corner speeds (I've got an idea - let’s get rid of 250's and replace them with farm bikes).

This whole control tyre theory becoming reality is dependant on those Michelin riders running near Vale, Casey and Dani. I don't know if I can see that actually coming to fruition. Apart from Stoner who runs the same compounds as Vale who can ride on that tyre? Edwards said many times whilst they were both on Michelins he cannot run on Vales tyres.

A control tyre is great in WSBK because it is loosely a production series and I quote from AMCN where Ronald Ten Kate states that one of his WSBK machines costs only $200,000 to build. Keeping the costs low in that class is actually in keeping with the spirit of the class and they are only 3 seconds off the motogp bikes at that (Phillips Island lap times as the example)

Motogp is a prototype series and a machine costs up to 3 million, a far cry from the series marginally slower and more spectacular to watch (even Rossi says so) WSBK's. Yet for all that money you throw out a sponsor like Michelin when teams offered to ride on the “bad” tyres.

If the control tyre doesn’t bring close racing then what next?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Nov 13 2008, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>IF and just if mind you "if" the Bridgestone’s offered out last year were consistent (there is some suggestion they were not) then this is the close racing...

Casey and Valentino ran Bridgestone’s, so did Marco, Toni, Westy, Loris, Sylvain, Chris.

Eventually Dani did as well (just after the boycott I think)

Apart from Laguna - where was the close racing at the front promised by the one make?

Okay, Dovi, Jorge, Nicki, Colin JT et al didn't have them.

I think you are betting a lot on a control tyre. The lap speeds didn't slow down at the post season test (Valencia) and the safety aspect is still debatable as 250's have higher corner speeds (I've got an idea - let’s get rid of 250's and replace them with farm bikes).

This whole control tyre theory becoming reality is dependant on those Michelin riders running near Vale, Casey and Dani. I don't know if I can see that actually coming to fruition. Apart from Stoner who runs the same compounds as Vale who can ride on that tyre? Edwards said many times whilst they were both on Michelins he cannot run on Vales tyres.

A control tyre is great in WSBK because it is loosely a production series and I quote from AMCN where Ronald Ten Kate states that one of his WSBK machines costs only $200,000 to build. Keeping the costs low in that class is actually in keeping with the spirit of the class and they are only 3 seconds off the motogp bikes at that (Phillips Island lap times as the example)

Motogp is a prototype series and a machine costs up to 3 million, a far cry from the series marginally slower and more spectacular to watch (even Rossi says so) WSBK's. Yet for all that money you throw out a sponsor like Michelin when teams offered to ride on the “bad” tyres.

If the control tyre doesn’t bring close racing then what next?

I doubt a control tire alone guaranty close racing but I hope it is a step in the right direction.
We won't see close racing in the top on all races and neither do they have that in SBK, but to have 4 instead of two top riders on the same tire will help, so will having the usual suspects like Hayden and Dovi on the same tires too.
In addition to the huge difference in tire quality this year, the distance between the best and the rest were huge. Better equipment (Dovi, Capirossi) and better suited bikes (Elias, Melandri, Hayden) will hopefully close the gap and put those riders in the top battles now and then. This would of course help a lot as well.

You are comparing apples and oranges when you talk about Edwards on Rossi's tires when they both where with Michelin. Michelin's tayloring where they stregth and weakness and they taylored tires for Rossi, as they also did for they other top riders. However, Rossi, Stoner and Pedrosa are all fast on the same B tires and with that diversety in bikes and riders all being fast close to guaranty that any fast rider can be competetive with B. The rest of the pack is really not interesting at all. I couldn't care less if a midpacker become a backmarker just because he can't adjust to the tires as long as the fast go fast.
 
Any idea why this Carter dude keeps referring to racing fans as anoraks (jackets)????
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The control tire has one major thing working in its favor: Honda will be supplying the grid with 6 pneumatic machines next season.

If anything will help make race day better it's equipment parity between the satellite teams and the factory teams.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Helix @ Nov 13 2008, 09:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>An anorak is a british term for geeks.

Thank-you, didn't know that one!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Nov 13 2008, 04:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I doubt a control tire alone guaranty close racing but I hope it is a step in the right direction.
We won't see close racing in the top on all races and neither do they have that in SBK, but to have 4 instead of two top riders on the same tire will help, so will having the usual suspects like Hayden and Dovi on the same tires too.
In addition to the huge difference in tire quality this year, the distance between the best and the rest were huge. Better equipment (Dovi, Capirossi) and better suited bikes (Elias, Melandri, Hayden) will hopefully close the gap and put those riders in the top battles now and then. This would of course help a lot as well.

You are comparing apples and oranges when you talk about Edwards on Rossi's tires when they both where with Michelin. Michelin's tayloring where they stregth and weakness and they taylored tires for Rossi, as they also did for they other top riders. However, Rossi, Stoner and Pedrosa are all fast on the same B tires and with that diversety in bikes and riders all being fast close to guaranty that any fast rider can be competetive with B. The rest of the pack is really not interesting at all. I couldn't care less if a midpacker become a backmarker just because he can't adjust to the tires as long as the fast go fast.
Can you please go back to making posts I routinely disagreed with? I'm tired of looking like a Sally (no offense Sally) by constantly agreeing with your points and giving you compliments on your posts.
 
Tony Carter doesn't even present Motogp on Eurosport,the smarmy little git presents British Superbikes his opinion is bollox.You could put Rossi on a rear tyre made from durex and he'd still destroy the rest of them.The single tyre rule in WSB gives close racing because barring the departed Bayliss,there is a clutch of riders that are evenly matched,nobody stands out,so in my opinion it's feck all to do with the rubber.
 
Dennis Noyes makes a interesting point heretofore un-noted -

"If everybody is on near-identical tires, then riding style and machine character will need to evolve to suit those tires, so the rider/machine packages will become more homogenized, which means everyone could end up using the same braking points, cornering lines and acceleration points, so overcoming will be even more difficult than it is with the current 800's."

He doesn't go on to say why this would be more so for Moto GP as opposed to WSB.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (250stroker @ Nov 14 2008, 08:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tony Carter doesn't even present Motogp on Eurosport,the smarmy little git presents British Superbikes his opinion is bollox.You could put Rossi on a rear tyre made from durex and he'd still destroy the rest of them.The single tyre rule in WSB gives close racing because barring the departed Bayliss,there is a clutch of riders that are evenly matched,nobody stands out,so in my opinion it's feck all to do with the rubber.

I think it is quite fair to contend that his swap from Michelin to Bridgstone was because of the contrary situation.

He couldn't win on any tyre. He spat the dummy and threatened to quit. At least he waited until the end of a season to swap (but played politics during the season) and didn't arrange the odd (failed) boycott, but he hardly cloaked himself in glory either.
 

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