The best era?

Hey, i am super bored right now, so i am gonna ask you guys a question with no correct answer. And if you can be bothered, i want to know what you think.

We all know it is near impossible to compare the compare riding in different eras, but i want to try. When do you think was the riding was at its most impressive and why?

Do you vote oldskool, for the days when the Guys rode bikes with open faced helmets on road circuits and had chassis that could barely hold together.

Or the 80's when the 2-strokes where spitting people off their backs with tires that just couldn't deal with it.

or any other time in the history of the sport, maybe even now.

For me, 2006 was the hardest, most competative and therefore most impressive it has ever been.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 8 2007, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hey, i am super bored right now, so i am gonna ask you guys a question with no correct answer. And if you can be bothered, i want to know what you think.

We all know it is near impossible to compare the compare riding in different eras, but i want to try. When do you think was the riding was at its most impressive and why?

Do you vote oldskool, for the days when the Guys rode bikes with open faced helmets on road circuits and had chassis that could barely hold together.

Or the 80's when the 2-strokes where spitting people off their backs with tires that just couldn't deal with it.

or any other time in the history of the sport, maybe even now.

For me, 2006 was the hardest, most competative and therefore most impressive it has ever been.
Impossible to answer I reckon Tom.
Maybe it's not so obvious in road racing to see how far the sport has progressed. After all, racing on tarmac is racing on tarmac! But it is obvious the style, speed, technology of todays racing is a completely different beast to years gone by.
The progress is more marked in other motorcycle sports. Scrambles has become motocross, and the gentle old past time of mud plugging trials riding has become the magic circle of motorcycling.
For me, the magic era defines a time when I was full of wonderment, that fat little kid with his face pressed up against the gap in the chestnut fencing, and running around with his autograph book!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 8 2007, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hey, i am super bored right now, so i am gonna ask you guys a question with no correct answer. And if you can be bothered, i want to know what you think.

We all know it is near impossible to compare the compare riding in different eras, but i want to try. When do you think was the riding was at its most impressive and why?

Do you vote oldskool, for the days when the Guys rode bikes with open faced helmets on road circuits and had chassis that could barely hold together.

Or the 80's when the 2-strokes where spitting people off their backs with tires that just couldn't deal with it.

or any other time in the history of the sport, maybe even now.

For me, 2006 was the hardest, most competative and therefore most impressive it has ever been.

The whole 2 stroke era, mid 70s through to late 90s. 2006 was close, but its widely accepted that the diesels are easier to ride than the 2 strokes, so in my opinion, the era of bikes that spat you off as soon as foul a plug has to be the greatest era.

I agree, close racing makes for better watching, but in the 90s world superbikes was closer racing, but at a lower level.

The diesels have levelled the playing field, giving more riders a shot at winning at the top level, but watching guys master 750 or 500 2 strokes was amazing.

I think there has to be an upper echelon of racing that only the gods can conquer.


Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burky @ Feb 8 2007, 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Impossible to answer I reckon Tom.
Maybe it's not so obvious in road racing to see how far the sport has progressed. After all, racing on tarmac is racing on tarmac! But it is obvious the style, speed, technology of todays racing is a completely different beast to years gone by.
The progress is more marked in other motorcycle sports. Scrambles has become motocross, and the gentle old past time of mud plugging trials riding has become the magic circle of motorcycling.
For me, the magic era defines a time when I was full of wonderment, that fat little kid with his face pressed up against the gap in the chestnut fencing, and running around with his autograph book!


Very well put Burky, I'm biased, I love strokers, which makes the whole 2 stroke era hold something special for me. Just like watching guys wrestling openclass Maico twinshocks is a different ballgame from modern four stroke crossers.

And they smell so much better!

Pete

Interesting stuff. I am younger, so my interest in racing grew large with Valentino Rossi's career, and i don't think it was a coincidence. however, i am a 2 stroke lover myself, and am angry that i only got to watch 500's for 4 years and never saw them for real.

A point worth thinking about regarding this new "level playing field". I think it is quite possible that the situation would have been the same regardless of 2 or 4 strokes. The biggest changes have been electronics and tyre technologies, and both of these would naturally have come about on the two strokes as well.

But i still think that most of the challanges the riders in the two stroke days faced still remain, and newer and further challanges are now in place.

My personal favorite time is when you had guys on the track like Eddie Lawson, Wayne Gardner, Wayne Rainey, Kevin Schwantz, Christian sarron, Bubba Shobert, and Randy Mamola. Mick Doohans time is hard to quantify because he simply beat everyone into oblivion to such a degree that everyone else knew they were racing for second place. The machines were malevolent unpredictable brutes that would try to mangle or kill its riders at a moments notice. These were really hard men who raced hard every time they got on the track. I dont think we can say the same for all of the racers of the modern era. Having said that there are still some guys who do the jod week in and week out. Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ Feb 8 2007, 03:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>These were really hard men who raced hard every time they got on the track. I dont think we can say the same for all of the racers of the modern era. Having said that there are still some guys who do the jod week in and week out. Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.

I have to disagree here, you named a short list of riders who you say were hard men who raced hard every time they went on track. And i agree, they were and they are great. But i think you can definately say the same for the riders now. I think Melandri and Capirossi showed just how hard they were this year, dealing with their injuries the way they did. And as for hard racing, i think it isn't exactly soft nowdays. I think the 80's era was obviously incredible, but it is often well remembered because nobody stood out far enough to make it "boring" like doohan or Rossi for example. Maybe it wasn't actually as hard as the 90's when it seemed so difficult that only one man in the world could do it properley.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 8 2007, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting stuff. I am younger, so my interest in racing grew large with Valentino Rossi's career, and i don't think it was a coincidence. however, i am a 2 stroke lover myself, and am angry that i only got to watch 500's for 4 years and never saw them for real.

A point worth thinking about regarding this new "level playing field". I think it is quite possible that the situation would have been the same regardless of 2 or 4 strokes. The biggest changes have been electronics and tyre technologies, and both of these would naturally have come about on the two strokes as well.

But i still think that most of the challanges the riders in the two stroke days faced still remain, and newer and further challanges are now in place.


Good points in there Tom, technology would have made the 2 strokes easier to ride, (the Big Bang Honda for example) but Doohan reverted to the harder to ride screamer, and kicked everyones ... again! Criville, who was running Doohan second, couldnt stay on the screamer for a whole test, he went straight back onto the big bang, and followed Doohan again.

I cant imagine many guys out there just now switching off thier engine management to race. Your right, it has evolved, but this has made it more sanitized. I know that sounds stupid when we are talking prototype race bikes, but, dig out some footage of these guys wrestling the old 2 strokes from the early 90s, or earlier, it's a different ballgame.The power delivery of a racing stroker will always kick in hard, (remember Roberts TZ750 flat tracker, you could kill a cylinder to try and find grip on the corners, very early traction control!) it's the nature of the beast.

Maybe I'm old fashioned (or just old) but i think there was a purity of these guys on bikes that ate thier tyres and highsided the rider off at the drop of a hat. Watching the guys drift the backends of the new motogp bikes is almost graceful. Watching Doohan or Schwantz sliding a 500 is bloody scary!

Like you say Tom, we have grown up with different generations of motorcycles so have different perspectives.

But heres a thought, imagine riding a 150 mph Kawasaki H2R 750, back in the early, mid 70s, a tuned 2 stroke triple, with a bendy frame, open spannies, and all the time you are listening for the tell tale noises it's about to seize.......

Pete

I need a time machine, i wanna go back. I know what you mean, when i am watching old 500 videos and i see Rainey or schwantz lay down a ...... it really is something awesome compared to the slides now.

I guess the difference is, that back in the old days the rider would be fighting to stay onboard his bike at all, whereas now the bikes are more forgiving and the riders can focus just on going quickly. And the fact they raced those beasts is very very cool.

We all know that 4 strokes are for tree hugging gays, but i would say the riding now is as hard as it was, just that when it goes wrong the consequences are smaller. So it is safer than it was. But being more dangerous alone cannot be a reason for a sport to be impressive, or elsewe would consider the isle of man tt riders to be superior to Rossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 8 2007, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have to disagree here, you named a short list of riders who you say were hard men who raced hard every time they went on track. And i agree, they were and they are great. But i think you can definately say the same for the riders now. I think Melandri and Capirossi showed just how hard they were this year, dealing with their injuries the way they did. And as for hard racing, i think it isn't exactly soft nowdays. I think the 80's era was obviously incredible, but it is often well remembered because nobody stood out far enough to make it "boring" like doohan or Rossi for example. Maybe it wasn't actually as hard as the 90's when it seemed so difficult that only one man in the world could do it properley.

I agree with you on the point of Mick and Valentino making things "boring" because they were so dominant. However I must disagree with you on the point that all current racers race hard all of the time. You named two hard men and I agree with you on those two, but I think we can realistically limit todays "hard-men" to only the elite riders and not everyone in general. One example that I am sure will stir up some controversey is Nicky Hayden. He held back and raced conservatively when everyone was having horrible luck and consequently forced to miss races and ride through injuries. In this case it worked, but it will not work in most cases. I am sure that Nicky is a very talented rider, however since he has left AMA he has become very conservative in his riding. I believe part of the reason for this is the influence his riding coach Doug Chandler has had on him. Doug is a three time AMA Superbike champ and known as a very smooth conservative rider. Nicky has taken Dougs "take what the race gives you" approach. I do not believe Nicky raceshard every race. Having said that he is the newly crowned champ, so that shows how much I know.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 8 2007, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I need a time machine, i wanna go back. I know what you mean, when i am watching old 500 videos and i see Rainey or schwantz lay down a ...... it really is something awesome compared to the slides now.

I guess the difference is, that back in the old days the rider would be fighting to stay onboard his bike at all, whereas now the bikes are more forgiving and the riders can focus just on going quickly. And the fact they raced those beasts is very very cool.

We all know that 4 strokes are for tree hugging gays, but i would say the riding now is as hard as it was, just that when it goes wrong the consequences are smaller. So it is safer than it was. But being more dangerous alone cannot be a reason for a sport to be impressive, or elsewe would consider the isle of man tt riders to be superior to Rossi.


Nah, have to disagree here Tom, I dont think you can say that riding a 990 or 800 four stroke with electronics to control the power is as hard as riding a 70s 80s or 90s stroker. The fact the consequences are smaller and its safer is a big difference. We all know about the TT, but guys like Roberts et all were racing at the Nurburgring for gods sake! The TT is a one off once a year event, (although it was a GP) were talking about a season of racing these things!



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ Feb 8 2007, 09:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree with you on the point of Mick and Valentino making things "boring" because they were so dominant. However I must disagree with you on the point that all current racers race hard all of the time. You named two hard men and I agree with you on those two, but I think we can realistically limit todays "hard-men" to only the elite riders and not everyone in general. One example that I am sure will stir up some controversey is Nicky Hayden. He held back and raced conservatively when everyone was having horrible luck and consequently forced to miss races and ride through injuries. In this case it worked, but it will not work in most cases. I am sure that Nicky is a very talented rider, however since he has left AMA he has become very conservative in his riding. I believe part of the reason for this is the influence his riding coach Doug Chandler has had on him. Doug is a three time AMA Superbike champ and known as a very smooth conservative rider. Nicky has taken Dougs "take what the race gives you" approach. I do not believe Nicky raceshard every race. Having said that he is the newly crowned champ, so that shows how much I know.


This is a very good informative post here mate, you are saying a lot of the things that us serious Rossi fans have said, and have been dismissed because we are Rossi fans and not bike racing fans. Funny that, I cant get my head around the Rossi fan = not a racing fan thing, esp if you ask people if they were following GPs in the 80s, 90s etc, and they don't answer!

Nah, I'm gonna piss off the Google gang and say that Haydens style of riding would have got him nowhere 15 years ago, when the grid was full of Rainey, Doohan, Schwantz, Cadalora, Gardiner, Koscinski etc There were plenty of solid riders then who never hit the top coz there were also several gods to race!

I didnt realise Hayboy was coached by Dud Chandler. Explains a lot.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ Feb 8 2007, 09:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree with you on the point of Mick and Valentino making things "boring" because they were so dominant. However I must disagree with you on the point that all current racers race hard all of the time. You named two hard men and I agree with you on those two, but I think we can realistically limit todays "hard-men" to only the elite riders and not everyone in general. One example that I am sure will stir up some controversey is Nicky Hayden. He held back and raced conservatively when everyone was having horrible luck and consequently forced to miss races and ride through injuries. In this case it worked, but it will not work in most cases. I am sure that Nicky is a very talented rider, however since he has left AMA he has become very conservative in his riding. I believe part of the reason for this is the influence his riding coach Doug Chandler has had on him. Doug is a three time AMA Superbike champ and known as a very smooth conservative rider. Nicky has taken Dougs "take what the race gives you" approach. I do not believe Nicky raceshard every race. Having said that he is the newly crowned champ, so that shows how much I know.

Great stuff, cheers for that! but your coment that the "hard-men" is limited to the very elite is the same as it always has been. The standard list of hard riders (mentioned in Petes post) is based upon a whole decade and not just single year so i would say it is as strong now, the grid is full of world cahmpions and hard men. In the 80's only the top 5 guys or so where still in the same league.

Pete, great point about the TT being one week and the gp guys riding the nurburgring and such. You have me convinced there, gp was and is much more impressife. But i want to point out that Haydens attitude did work in the 80's, example being "steady Eddie" mr consistency and a guy who won 4 world titles too.

I like the idea of this topic, I feel it's going to be a Surtees, Agostini, Doohan v Rossi, Hayden, Capirossi, Melandri affair though. To be honest you cannot possibly tell what's instore for the future and just how exciting and close it will be. You never know, next season an individual rider could blitz every track and win by a huge margin (making it the next F1...), on a personal note though I feel the young talent coming through the ranks nowadays is brilliant - Pedrosa, Stoner, Lorenzo, Guintoli etc. Plus the standard of racing has improved over the decades and has become more competitve with also more fans watching.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Feb 10 2007, 12:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Plus the standard of racing has improved over the decades and has become more competitve with also more fans watching.
Not so sure I agree with you Alex.
The racing has always been competetive on the world stage, more fans are watching simply because the sport is far better promoted these days.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burky @ Feb 10 2007, 12:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not so sure I agree with you Alex.
The racing has always been competetive on the world stage, more fans are watching simply because the sport is far better promoted these days.
What i'm trying to get to is that there is much more hype about these guys competing with each other and to win races and the championship. I don't know what the competitiveness was like in the old days though, so others may disagree with me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Feb 10 2007, 12:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I feel the young talent coming through the ranks nowadays is brilliant - Pedrosa, Stoner, Lorenzo, Guintoli etc.

You do know that you mentioned Guintoli and talent in the same sentence?

The guy can't stay on the bike long enough to have talent.

What we have now is a comercial, popular sport where money is big and being a rider comes with fame on the side. In the old days it was pure racing, people who just wanted to ride bikes and weren't to bothered about the risks or the fact that it was a hard life. And of course the 80's was the era when it largely developed from one to the other. Compare 1980 to 1990, the difference is huge.

I guess it comes down to what you like and also how old you are. I love it all, to me bike grand prix racing is the best sport ever, and i don't see that changing soon.

THE big question. The greatest era. When was it? Has it yet to arrive? Is Rossi the Messiah? I've had this argument with my old man many times. He watched Surtees, Hartle, Hocking, Ivy, Redman, Ago and Hailwood in the 'glory days' of the 60's. He fiercely inists that Lawson, Doohan, Rossi and the like couldn't possibly ride those old bikes, that they're not the real hard men, and though he makes me laugh cos he gets so animated about it, he might be right. If you've ever stood close to a classic racer, you'll know how crude some of those bikes really were compared to even a 2007 over the counter 'blade let alone a GP bike. Consider mostly closed public roads full of potholes along with crap suspension, brakes and tyres, and the fact that IOM TT lap records have only improved by less that 20% in 40 years, and you'd have to say those guys were amazing. I could present a reasonable argument for the early 90's, someone else could conclude that the present era is the greatest of all time, same with riders. My argument is always that you just can't compare different generations in any sport. Every year records get broken and technology moves on. They're all golden eras, we're in the middle of one right now. In 30 years time I hope I'm arguing with my kid about who was the greatest. Geez, imagine a gp bike in 2037

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Feb 10 2007, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You do know that you mentioned Guintoli and talent in the same sentence?

The guy can't stay on the bike long enough to have talent.
He makes Cardoso look like an amatuer!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Feb 11 2007, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He makes Cardoso look like an amatuer!


I think the point of this thread is that it will ALWAYS be inconclusive! Thats great though, it's always good to see people throwing their opinions into the ring, and by discussing GP racing over the last 40 years were all learning little bits and pieces from each other. As has very rightly been said, you cant compare sportsmen from different generations, but the fun is in the debate, not the answer. Coz there cant be a right or wrong really!

Looking back to the days of nasty strokers, the bigger challenge was that to beat the other riders, and to race the track, you had to fight the bike more. That is why my opinion lies with the strokers. The diesels have made it easier to have more riders upfront, which makes for closer racing. Which is good. I think that guys like Cadalora, who werent prepared to lose faculties (remember Beattie losing 5 toes in an accident!!!!) would be more competative on todays bikes than they were on the 2 strokes.

We do still have serious crashes in GP (RIP Katoh) but the unpredictable highsides have all but disappeared. Thats a good thing, cant think of many scarier things on a bike myself. They will still happen, but with the strokers, they were happening every week!

Anyway, 4.00 this afternoon on ESPN classic, 1983 and 1985 British GPs!


Pete

Since when do we get ESPN in the uk, how do i get it, and does it actually have a lot of good stuff on it. What about SPEED, can we get that as well.