Testing restrictions lifted for 2012

Mental Anarchist · Oct 29, 2011

I have argued this before but if it is perceived that the sport is manipulated in favour of a rider or a manufacturer than sponsors will only spend money on the favoured rider/team because ultimately sponsors want to win. I have repeatedly offered my opinion which is well backed up by reality that the majority of sponsor dollars flow to Rossi's team be it yamaha or ducati.

Many argue that Rossi has been good for MotoGP. The reality is that MotoGP fails to attract sponsors and the sport can not sustain itself from sponsorship dollars. I argue that if the politics was equal then the sponsors revenue would be better balanced and the overall pool of revenue would be larger.

It is my opinion that Dorna has and continues to build the Rossi Brand rather than the MotoGP Brand. It is my opinion that this was foolish and continues to be foolish.

stiefel · Oct 29, 2011

Going as far as saying that Rossi gets some unfair advantage by this appears naive to me, as the same rules apply for all riders.

Claiming that this relaxation of the testing restrictions are completely unrelated to Rossi's struggles on the Ducati appears equally naive to me.

Of course everybody gains a bit from this in absolute terms but that is of no importance. In relative terms, Rossi and Ducati will gain the most. There is little doubt in my mind that this rule change would not have occurred if Rossi would have had a decent season.

I'm also convinced that next year's tires will be much better suited to the Ducati. I hope all this will make them more competitive again, but I also hope that the competitiveness of Stoner and Lorenzo won't be sacrificed just to get the goose with the golden eggs back to the top.

One things for sure, if Ducati and Rossi can't make it work next year, it won't be for lack of political influence.

stiefel · Oct 29, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
It is my opinion that Dorna has and continues to build the Rossi Brand rather than the MotoGP Brand. It is my opinion that this was foolish and continues to be foolish.

Good point, I share these opinions.

chopperman · Oct 29, 2011

bluegreen said:
And Ducati start buying shoe polish by the gross ala Burt Munro....

michaelm · Oct 29, 2011

How many more seasons will rossi be around? Even dorna realise it won't be many. I am fairly sure if he does win another championship he will immediately retire. Dorna seem to have plenty of plans for the future of motogp (whether good or not), particularly the whole CRT thing, which don't appear to relate to him at all.

The testing rule was stupid, not instituted to help rossi that I can see, and has proven to have many shortcomings, including not saving money or helping the teams with less resources ie those other than the factory honda and yamaha teams as it was presumably designed to do. Rescinding it and returning to the previous workable rule may help rossi, I personally hope it does, otherwise we may see ducati's demise which will have far more implications for the sport long term as andy says than rossi's performance or lack thereof at the tail end of his great and very successful career. I don't think anything will get rossi another championship other than getting back on a factory honda or yamaha myself, and the testing rule would seem fairly irrelevant to that.

valerian · Oct 30, 2011

It's a good idea to getting rid of the testing ban as I don't think anyone was really in favour of it. I am sure part of the reasoning was that the ban made it very difficult for one manufacturer to catch up with another during the season and that unspoken in all this was that Ducati and hence Rossi would be the major beneficiary of this. More importantly, hopefully, it will give us more exciting racing along with the engine changes.

J4rn0 · Oct 30, 2011

One should rather wonder why, and for the benefit of whom, this (apparently silly) testing limitation rule was enforced in the first place. It has always been clear that it would not reduce costs. So...? Our conspiracy theorists seem to function one way only.

Stopping penalizing the manufacturers who have to catch up, cancelling such senseless rules, can hardly be considered some kind of preferential treatment -- especially when a lot of damage has already been done anyway.

stiefel · Oct 30, 2011

J4rn0 said:
One should rather wonder why, and for the benefit of whom, this (apparently silly) testing limitation rule was enforced in the first place. It has always been clear that it would not reduce costs. So...? Our conspiracy theorists seem to function one way only.

I don't know. What do you think? Keep in mind that back when that decision was made, no one knew where Ducati was headed this season. They looked reasonably competitive. Who do you think was set to benefit?

I have personally considered the intentions behind the testing ban to actually be cost reduction, as it was not without precedents in other competitions (F1). Of course, that does not mean that it has not suffered from Kropotkin's law of unintended consequences, no debate on my part there.

J4rn0 said:
Stopping penalizing the manufacturers who have to catch up, cancelling such senseless rules, can hardly be considered some kind of preferential treatment -- especially when a lot of damage has already been done anyway.

I would be careful to brush all critical voices with the 'conspiracy theorist' brush, especially when suggesting foul play in the same breath.

I'm not against lifting the testing ban. Still I wonder J4rn0, do you believe this would have happened if Ducati would not have had a complete clusterfck of a season?

motortom · Oct 30, 2011

By focusing this change on Rossi rather than the long term effects you're doing exactly what it is you claim to abhor. Someone hinted at it earlier - this could have a positive influence on teams like Suzuki who need some kind of assurance that they are going to be allowed to develop what we've clearly seen as a good bike towards the latter end of this season, and turn it into one of the front runners. I just hope this hasn't come too late - the effects will still be present even when Rossi and half the current paddock are gone. http://whoneedsfourwheels.blogspot.com/

techno · Oct 30, 2011

Surely this relaxation of the testing rules rather than assist seasoned moto gp riders has to be a godsend for rookies moving to the class?

stiefel · Oct 30, 2011

motortom said:
By focusing this change on Rossi rather than the long term effects you're doing exactly what it is you claim to abhor. Someone hinted at it earlier - this could have a positive influence on teams like Suzuki who need some kind of assurance that they are going to be allowed to develop what we've clearly seen as a good bike towards the latter end of this season, and turn it into one of the front runners. I just hope this hasn't come too late - the effects will still be present even when Rossi and half the current paddock are gone. http://whoneedsfourw...s.blogspot.com/

As I've stated in my previous post, I'm not against lifting the testing ban. What I claim to abhor is turning every debate into a Rossi vs. Stoner deathmatch. What I have also claimed to abhor consistently in the last months, is gingerly tiptoeing around everything related to Ducati Rossi because they are having a bad season. I don't think I have done either.

The thing is, I don't think there's much else to debate with regards to lifting the testing ban. Everyone, including me, is in favour. The only thing interesting about it, to my mind, is the question I put to J4rn0: do you believe this would have happened if it weren't for Ducati's results this season?

motortom · Oct 30, 2011

Now it has happened I'd say it was practically impossible to make an assumption either way. My gut feeling says no, it wouldn't have happened for at least another season, by then Ducati could have been completely up the spout which I don't think anyone wants. I'd like to think that even if you take Ducati out of the equation, there's been enough turbulence financially and in terms of rider opinions to have resulted in this change, but like I hint at in the article, without the added incentive it'd be even harder for the organisers to publicly admit they made a big mistake by fully reversing the decision - hence the lingering tyre rules. It goes hand in hand with introducing the CRT's in that it's an attempt to allow competitiveness to grow throughout the field without making it obviously artificial. There are plenty of other good riders out there doing equally .... on the Ducati as well. They make up a large enough proportion of the grid even before you consider the unavoidable influence of Vale. So I guess the answer to your question is no - which is by itself shows a negative aspect of the way high end decisions are currently made, but if taken in context is really a positive for the sport.

Either way, like I said, I hope it's going to be to the benefit of more than just Ducati, even if it is Rossi's involvement that pushed the change through.

chopperman · Oct 30, 2011

stiefel said:
As I've stated in my previous post, I'm not against lifting the testing ban. What I claim to abhor is turning every debate into a Rossi vs. Stoner deathmatch. What I have also claimed to abhor consistently in the last months, is gingerly tiptoeing around everything related to Ducati Rossi because they are having a bad season. I don't think I have done either.

The thing is, I don't think there's much else to debate with regards to lifting the testing ban. Everyone, including me, is in favour. The only thing interesting about it, to my mind, is the question I put to J4rn0: do you believe this would have happened if it weren't for Ducati's results this season?

Maybe its to help get all the crt bikes sorted.

motortom · Oct 30, 2011

chopperman said:
Maybe its to help get all the crt bikes sorted.

Do we know how the rules are going to affect the CRT's by the way? Are they going to get to select a test circuit like the factories or is that out of their financial reach?

stiefel · Oct 30, 2011

chopperman said:
Maybe its to help get all the crt bikes sorted.

Good point. I think that also contributed, definitely.

Still, they could have just given the CRT's some special testing rights, it's not like they don't have their own rulebook anyway.

stiefel · Oct 30, 2011

motortom said:
Now it has happened I'd say it was practically impossible to make an assumption either way. My gut feeling says no, it wouldn't have happened for at least another season, by then Ducati could have been completely up the spout which I don't think anyone wants. I'd like to think that even if you take Ducati out of the equation, there's been enough turbulence financially and in terms of rider opinions to have resulted in this change, but like I hint at in the article, without the added incentive it'd be even harder for the organisers to publicly admit they made a big mistake by fully reversing the decision - hence the lingering tyre rules. It goes hand in hand with introducing the CRT's in that it's an attempt to allow competitiveness to grow throughout the field without making it obviously artificial. There are plenty of other good riders out there doing equally .... on the Ducati as well. They make up a large enough proportion of the grid even before you consider the unavoidable influence of Vale. So I guess the answer to your question is no - which is by itself shows a negative aspect of the way high end decisions are currently made, but if taken in context is really a positive for the sport.

Either way, like I said, I hope it's going to be to the benefit of more than just Ducati, even if it is Rossi's involvement that pushed the change through.

Sorry dude, haven't read your article. Agree with pretty much everything in your post though, and share your hope that Ducati (and Suzuki) will survive and become (semi)competitive.

bluegreen · Oct 30, 2011

chopperman said:
Maybe its to help get all the crt bikes sorted.

That's crazy, get your head out of Rossi's ....

Mental Anarchist · Oct 30, 2011

I fail to see how unlimited testing is going to help Suzuki. If they actually stay in the sport they will be running their 800. There budget will be small as usual so how much and what will they be able to test????

In the mean time Honda, Yamaha and Ducati will be able to test without limitation and just continue to pull away.

Same applies to CRT's. Most will be running on limited budgets and therefore testing will be limited by that number one constraint.

The other component of this is Teams with the best riders will be able to get the most out of testing.

I am not against unlimited testing at all but I think it is not going to be a cure all that some of you think it is. The best riders and teams will still be the best riders and teams and the races will still be strung out because the best riders and teams are just ... better.

stiefel · Oct 30, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
I fail to see how unlimited testing is going to help Suzuki. If they actually stay in the sport they will be running their 800. There budget will be small as usual so how much and what will they be able to test????

In the mean time Honda, Yamaha and Ducati will be able to test without limitation and just continue to pull away.

Same applies to CRT's. Most will be running on limited budgets and therefore testing will be limited by that number one constraint.

The other component of this is Teams with the best riders will be able to get the most out of testing.

I am not against unlimited testing at all but I think it is not going to be a cure all that some of you think it is. The best riders and teams will still be the best riders and teams and the races will still be strung out because the best riders and teams are just ... better.

There's some truth in this I suppose, even though I think that Suzuki would benefit from having unlimited time with Bautista on the bike (given that he's still there next year...and there's a Suzuki to ride at all) and the law of diminishing returns should apply to some extend, thus Suzuki and Ducati should be able to make some headway relative to Honda and Yamaha, who are already at the pointy end.

I believe that any manufacturer will only spend enough to win, not more, and that includes Honda. Still, if it is the case that abolishing the testing ban will add to performance differences rather than diminish them, I have to say, I see little fault with the best manufacturers that commit the most resources to development and hire the best racers getting the best results.

Mental Anarchist · Oct 30, 2011

stiefel said:
There's some truth in this I suppose, even though I think that Suzuki would benefit from having unlimited time with Bautista on the bike (given that he's still there next year...and there's a Suzuki to ride at all) and the law of diminishing returns should apply to some extend, thus Suzuki and Ducati should be able to make some headway relative to Honda and Yamaha, who are already at the pointy end.

I believe that any manufacturer will only spend enough to win, not more, and that includes Honda. Still, if it is the case that abolishing the testing ban will add to performance differences rather than diminish them, I have to say, I see little fault with the best manufacturers that commit the most resources to development and hire the best racers getting the best results.

I agree. I just think the utopia that people keep hoping rules or the abolishing of them will create is as fanciful is Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

The next stab in the dark will be weight penalties to slow the fast guys down and yellow flags to bunch the field!!!

Testing restrictions lifted for 2012

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