Stoner is NOT the new Doohan

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cangaceiro @ Mar 13 2008, 01:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not suggesting that they do mate. I wouldn't be "unhappy" if 500cc two strokes were still on the grid because the style of riding while racing was quite entertaining, but I'm not against evolution and change in GP racing.

well apart from wet races I must say I still revel in every MGP race I have seen. But I guess I am not keen on freight train riding where one guy is a good blocker and effectively hinders better riders further progress. I know some like that but for me I like watching individual riders and there attitudes in control.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 13 2008, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Worth quoting your entire post here.

Dude, welcome to the forum. We need more knowledgeable, fair, and balanced Rossi guys around. So far we have a drunk guy, a pervert, an old lady, a few tire-superheroes, a hottie, and bunch of teenagers, and few level headed Hayden fans like me.
What have you got against drunken perverted old ladies?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 13 2008, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What have you got against drunken perverted old ladies?



mmmmmmm ..... is that the Hottie!!??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 12 2008, 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Worth quoting your entire post here.

Dude, welcome to the forum. We need more knowledgeable, fair, and balanced Rossi guys around. So far we have a drunk guy, a pervert, an old lady, a few tire-superheroes, a hottie, and bunch of teenagers, and few level headed Hayden fans like me.
Which categories do I fall under

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Noodlerizer @ Mar 13 2008, 06:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You know that Stoner would be nothing without traction control and could never handle the bike Doohan rode. You saw what happened to Stoner in 2006 with a more unpredictable bike. The only bike that Stoner can ever ride good is that 800cc Ducati. I could never see Stoner coping with a 500.

Man oh man... you really do have your creative juices flowing Noodle

Talk about Rising Sun having talent with the Top Ten lists! Maybe you should see if Sunny wants a bit of assistance this year because you really seem to be in "the zone"!

....since you've got time on your hands, go search YouTube for the video of Casey testing the 2007 Ducati before the bike was fitted with traction control. It was this ride which impressed his Ducati employers.

How any Richard Head can say the guy is only good because of TC must simply be jealous or has simply never ridden a bike. Bicycles don't count in this instance, although, when Casey balances on the rests he reminds one of bicycle pro tour riders. At times, especially where there are bumps you can see the bike dancing beneath him whilst his upper body remains low still and calm. His position and style represents, to me anyway, a cross between a dirt bike rider and a road bike cyclist. I really do think he has merged some of the balance skills from training on road bikes with his power bike experiences. But for sure you've got to have faith in what's under you and know its limitations and he has, unlike a few others, found the Duke's threshold

The style and balance of a rider might be another topic?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vibe @ Mar 13 2008, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>....since you've got time on your hands, go search YouTube for the video of Casey testing the 2007 Ducati before the bike was fitted with traction control. It was this ride which impressed his Ducati employers.

How any Richard Head can say the guy is only good because of TC must simply be jealous or has simply never ridden a bike. Bicycles don't count in this instance, although, when Casey balances on the rests he reminds one of bicycle pro tour riders. At times, especially where there are bumps you can see the bike dancing beneath him whilst his upper body remains low still and calm. His position and style represents, to me anyway, a cross between a dirt bike rider and a road bike cyclist. I really do think he has merged some of the balance skills from training on road bikes with his power bike experiences. But for sure you've got to have faith in what's under you and know its limitations and he has, unlike a few others, found the Duke's threshold

The style and balance of a rider might be another topic?
Very interesting post! Another perspective that I never thought of but one that makes a lot of sense!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cangaceiro @ Mar 13 2008, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner's crashes in 2006 were due to losing the front end. He wasn't comfortable with the front tyre/suspension/chassis combination of his 2006 Honda.

Most of his childhood riding was racing dirt track, often 5 times a day, on 5 different bikes and often winning those races. So he basically grew up learning to rear wheel steer and would appear to be pretty happy doing so. Similar to the background of guys like Nicky Hayden, Garry McCoy.

Given this, I don't see your logic when you say he'd be nothing without traction control. All these guys have good throttle control. The issue with traction control is it contains rear spin and if anything, I'd think Stoner'd be pretty comfortable lighting up the rear of a 500cc two stroke. Similarly i think Hayden/Toseland/Hopkins etc... wouldn't have too much trouble riding a 500, but perhaps many of the Euro 125/250cc brigade might have more difficulty as they have to learn to rear steer.

The issue is that with traction control, you can ride the big bikes more like a 125/250cc, which favours the guys who grew up racing GP stuff from Europe. Take traction control away I think you'd see the guys with dirt track backgrounds come to the fore again.

As to Vale, he didn't have a dirt background, he had to learn to rear steer and was able to do so comfortably. But then again, that's simply because he's got massive, massive talent.

I don't think many of the up and coming 125/250cc guys could make the jump and be as dominant. Maybe one or two, but that's it.

Good points Cangaceiro.
Just for the sake of completeness, Stoner wasn't simply 'not comfortable' with the Honda 2006's front end. He has spoken openly of 'games' played by 'companies' in an interview with SpeedTV last year. A very interesting interview, probably you can still find it in the archives of SpeedTV.com.
Cheers, nice to read you

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 14 2008, 05:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Good points Cangaceiro.
Just for the sake of completeness, Stoner wasn't simply 'not comfortable' with the Honda 2006's front end. He has spoken openly of 'games' played by 'companies' in an interview with SpeedTV last year. A very interesting interview, probably you can still find it in the archives of SpeedTV.com.
Cheers, nice to read you

Thanks J4rn0. It does sound quite interesting that interview, i'll have to try and google around for that one.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cangaceiro @ Mar 15 2008, 12:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thanks J4rn0. It does sound quite interesting that interview, i'll have to try and google around for that one.

Pity I didn't keep the whole interview, it seems pretty difficult to find it now... Anyway here is the 'hot' paragraph:

[Excerpt of Dennis Noyes' itw w/ Casey Stoner on SpeedTV.com in May 07]:

SpeedTV: What is the most annoying question you keep getting asked?

C.S: Why did you crash so much last year? I know the reason and I think for a lot of people it should be obvious what the reason is. The way we have been able to step it up this year without the crashes. There were too many times that the bike would change from one session to the next or from qualifying to the race and it was nothing that the team was doing. Other people were playing games. I am not going to say who but it has been obvious over the years how certain companies have played with their riders. ‘We want you to win, yep, but we don´t want you to win,’ and it is obvious that that has happened. It wasn’t obvious to me last year. Every time I crashed I was in the gravel trap scratching my head and saying ‘what the heck is happening here, I’m losing the front for no reason’. I get off the brakes, just touch the gas, I was already picking the bike up. It all started with the crash in Barcelona, I went in there the same as I had in practice and it was gone. Mugello, that was a bit more my fault, but the other crashes, starting with Barcelona -- I did not know what to do, I did not know why I was crashing and why it was my fault.

.................

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 13 2008, 08:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. drunk guy,
2. a pervert,
3. an old lady,
4. a few tire-superheroes
5. a hottie
6. bunch of teenagers,

i wonder who are these people...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Noodlerizer @ Mar 12 2008, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You know that Stoner would be nothing without traction control and could never handle the bike Doohan rode. You saw what happened to Stoner in 2006 with a more unpredictable bike. The only bike that Stoner can ever ride good is that 800cc Ducati. I could never see Stoner coping with a 500.

A very speculative point here, because it is so easy to justify conclusions ranging from "Stoner would be nowhere and hurt himself" to "Stoner would be even further ahead of the others than he is now".

I would say that ultimately Stoner has made his way to the pinnacle of his sport by making decisions which best prepared him for what motogp is. He has made it and shown that he has what it takes mentaly and physically to be the best rider in the world.

A few things about your reasons though:

Stoner fell off the front end in almost all of his 2006 crashes, so the power characteristics may not have been an issue for him, especially as he is winning races on the bike that is comonly considered to be the most animal of them all.

Using the fact that Stoner's success has come only on one bike is foolish since his career is still so young, and besides Doohan never even moved teams.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ Mar 16 2008, 03:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i wonder who are these people...
You're one of the hotties.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ Mar 16 2008, 11:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i wonder who are these people...


Yeah, where do I fit into this?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Mar 16 2008, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, where do I fit into this?
well the drunk guy has to be you or me pete pervert is pinky i recon, tom has to be the old lady

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 16 2008, 08:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well the drunk guy has to be you or me pete pervert is pinky i recon, tom has to be the old lady


Sounds spot on to me mate!!!!!!

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 17 2008, 03:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You're one of the hotties.

haha, nice...


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Mar 17 2008, 03:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, where do I fit into this?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 17 2008, 04:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well the drunk guy has to be you or me pete pervert is pinky i recon, tom has to be the old lady

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 13 2008, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. a drunk guy,
2. a pervert,
3. an old lady,
4. a few tire-superheroes,
5. a hottie,
6. a bunch of teenagers
So where do I fit into your scheme of things, Jumkie?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 15 2008, 10:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pity I didn't keep the whole interview, it seems pretty difficult to find it now... Anyway here is the 'hot' paragraph:

[Excerpt of Dennis Noyes' itw w/ Casey Stoner on SpeedTV.com in May 07]:

SpeedTV: What is the most annoying question you keep getting asked?

C.S: Why did you crash so much last year? I know the reason and I think for a lot of people it should be obvious what the reason is. The way we have been able to step it up this year without the crashes. There were too many times that the bike would change from one session to the next or from qualifying to the race and it was nothing that the team was doing. Other people were playing games. I am not going to say who but it has been obvious over the years how certain companies have played with their riders. ‘We want you to win, yep, but we don´t want you to win,’ and it is obvious that that has happened. It wasn’t obvious to me last year. Every time I crashed I was in the gravel trap scratching my head and saying ‘what the heck is happening here, I’m losing the front for no reason’. I get off the brakes, just touch the gas, I was already picking the bike up. It all started with the crash in Barcelona, I went in there the same as I had in practice and it was gone. Mugello, that was a bit more my fault, but the other crashes, starting with Barcelona -- I did not know what to do, I did not know why I was crashing and why it was my fault.

.................

Seriously, what was so obvious?

Which teams play with their riders? I seriously think that Hayden is being punked this year, so if he is talking about Honda molesting its rider then I may agree. But I also think that all the teams play with thier riders to a certain extent. How about that Barros interview that said Ducati ...... with him the whole season? And lets look at the Rossi/Edwards era. Who do you think was the Guinea Pig? Its sad but if this is true then maybe we should be talking about a controlled bike instead of TC, tires, rev limits, etc. And to top it all off there really only is about 4 actual contenders on the grid unless another rider can ride his balls off with lesser equipment. Thanks Casey now I really understand MOTOGP.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Mar 17 2008, 06:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Seriously, what was so obvious?

Which teams play with their riders? I seriously think that Hayden is being punked this year, so if he is talking about Honda molesting its rider then I may agree. But I also think that all the teams play with thier riders to a certain extent. How about that Barros interview that said Ducati ...... with him the whole season? And lets look at the Rossi/Edwards era. Who do you think was the Guinea Pig? Its sad but if this is true then maybe we should be talking about a controlled bike instead of TC, tires, rev limits, etc. And to top it all off there really only is about 4 actual contenders on the grid unless another rider can ride his balls off with lesser equipment. Thanks Casey now I really understand MOTOGP.

Barros said his bike was always the same, but that he didn't have a suspension technition, which is unfortunately a team issue. As for the Stoner thing, i don't believe for a minute that anyone in his team would be irresponsibly enough to alter his machine and not tell him on a regualr basis, especially when the results are so clearly dangerous. I think it should be taken more an an insight into the fragility of a bike racers mentality, look at the difference in Hayden's riding since the second he questioned himself in 07 pre-season. Its incredible really.