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Ohlins 2 Wheel Drive

Joined Jul 2008
808 Posts | 17+
New Jersey, USA
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/new...wheel-drive-r1/

Ohlins’ 2WD project manager reveals: it was faster dry or wet, suffered only a 2.5bhp power loss, and that there were four manufacturers who had Ohlins 2WD-equipped mules.
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Is it true the system only works when the rear wheel is slipping?
Yes. But the only time you have no rear-wheel slip on motorcycle is when you are pushing the bike. If you are riding, even at a constant speed, then you have a small slip. Before rubber transmits any drive at all it deforms. At 80kmh you have maybe 0.5% slip. At full throttle at 200kmh you have as much as 5% slip. At 5% spin there is roughly 160bar pressure in the system [system is pre-pressurised to 2-3 bar at rest].

In a corner, because of the different width in tyres front and rear, the rear wheel rotates faster than the front and this pressurises the system too, sending more power to the front. It works as hard at a constant speed in a corner as when accelerating at full throttle in a straight line. The effect is to drag the bag into the apex in a very different way to a rear-wheel-drive [RWD] bike. Turning the throttle in a bend on a RWD bike causes the bike’s front to lift and the bike to understeer. With 2wd the behaviour is completely different – the more you accelerate the more tightly the bike begins to turn.

What were the performance benefits?
Stability and cornering. Accelerating hard in a straight line the 2WD bike tracked straighter, with less chance of wheelying. But if you did provoke it into a wheelie it was much more easy to control – the spinning wheel creates gyroscopic stability to balance the whole bike. In the corners testers found they could accelerate harder round corners with none of the understeer that would normally cause. Just overcoming the rolling resistance of the front wheel helps the stability in all conditions. The R1 was 5 seconds faster in the wet at Kelskoga track. But it was between 1 and 2 sec faster in the dry too. The press has focused on advantages for novice riders, and this is true off-road. But on-road the more experienced you are the more benefits you can exploit. The more aggressively you ride it, the closer you dare to be to the limit, the more you stand to gain.

Which other manufacturers were interested?
Four manufacturers from Japan and Europe were very interested. We visited their factories to demonstrate the 2wd R1 and TT600R, and we came away with some of their machines to convert to 2wd for them to evaluate – everything from sportsbikes to tourers.

What was the response from the manufacturers?
Most of their test riders were impressed by the system on the R1. Most were going faster in the dry as well as the wet thanks to increased corner speed. But it altered the bike’s character from very crisp and urgent, into something more relaxed. Not slower, but easier to drive through corners and less ‘frisky’. It was a little heavier to turn in chicanes.
By 2004 we had the manufacturers’ bikes ready for evaluation – a tourer, a sportsbike equivalent to the R1, an adventure bike and another off-road bike. We thought the system added performance to all of them. They then took them away and as far as I know they still have them. Waiting to hear back was like waiting to hear from a girlfriend who has gone away. Unfortunately we heard very little.

What went wrong?
In 2004 we produced with Yamaha the WR450 2-Trac, with a run of 250 units. But demand was low because the price of such a limited run is high, and it was never homologated for the road. It was very frustrating to watch that bike fail. We continued to develop the technology for two years, until 2007, and had a new generation ready. But after the 2-Trac there wasn’t the demand. If that bike had succeeded we would have two-wheel-drive Yamahas and perhaps from other manufacturers today.

...
 
Thats an excellent read.

This is the kind of thing that i look for in prototype racing, more real innovation.



(Note the difference between true engineers explaining the dynamic, and those on here that pretend to be).
<
 
A buddy of mine is crazy about the 2 wheel drive thing. I dismissed it as another crazy idea but after reading the R&D that was done and the results it is impressive. I'd love to try it.
 
does anyone remember when yamaha put a 2wd system on a YZ-250 sometime in the late 90's

i remember seing something about it on tv it worked and the bike got more tracion in the dirt they tried a few different solutions but it never caught on.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 19 2009, 07:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
<

Fine you're right. While I'm at it, centrifugal force is real, too.
Let ignorance reign.
I was just teasing you buddy. I mean you no ill will.
 
I think the next big thing is electric bikes anyway, so I guess a lot of developments get just a look over at present, especially if they are internal combustion engines.

Electric power will also allow easier development of 2wd systems so the idea may come back, but not in hydraulic form.


Edit: I just remembered another downfall with the 2wd Hydraulic system ..... they are very fuel inefficient, so in todays fuel efficient ideology, they probably will never come to fruition again.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ May 18 2009, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/new...wheel-drive-r1/

Ohlins' 2WD project manager reveals: it was faster dry or wet, suffered only a 2.5bhp power loss, and that there were four manufacturers who had Ohlins 2WD-equipped mules.
...
Is it true the system only works when the rear wheel is slipping?
Yes. But the only time you have no rear-wheel slip on motorcycle is when you are pushing the bike. If you are riding, even at a constant speed, then you have a small slip. Before rubber transmits any drive at all it deforms. At 80kmh you have maybe 0.5% slip. At full throttle at 200kmh you have as much as 5% slip. At 5% spin there is roughly 160bar pressure in the system [system is pre-pressurised to 2-3 bar at rest].

In a corner, because of the different width in tyres front and rear, the rear wheel rotates faster than the front and this pressurises the system too, sending more power to the front. It works as hard at a constant speed in a corner as when accelerating at full throttle in a straight line. The effect is to drag the bag into the apex in a very different way to a rear-wheel-drive [RWD] bike. Turning the throttle in a bend on a RWD bike causes the bike's front to lift and the bike to understeer. With 2wd the behaviour is completely different – the more you accelerate the more tightly the bike begins to turn.

What were the performance benefits?
Stability and cornering. Accelerating hard in a straight line the 2WD bike tracked straighter, with less chance of wheelying. But if you did provoke it into a wheelie it was much more easy to control – the spinning wheel creates gyroscopic stability to balance the whole bike. In the corners testers found they could accelerate harder round corners with none of the understeer that would normally cause. Just overcoming the rolling resistance of the front wheel helps the stability in all conditions. The R1 was 5 seconds faster in the wet at Kelskoga track. But it was between 1 and 2 sec faster in the dry too. The press has focused on advantages for novice riders, and this is true off-road. But on-road the more experienced you are the more benefits you can exploit. The more aggressively you ride it, the closer you dare to be to the limit, the more you stand to gain.

Which other manufacturers were interested?
Four manufacturers from Japan and Europe were very interested. We visited their factories to demonstrate the 2wd R1 and TT600R, and we came away with some of their machines to convert to 2wd for them to evaluate – everything from sportsbikes to tourers.

What was the response from the manufacturers?
Most of their test riders were impressed by the system on the R1. Most were going faster in the dry as well as the wet thanks to increased corner speed. But it altered the bike's character from very crisp and urgent, into something more relaxed. Not slower, but easier to drive through corners and less 'frisky'. It was a little heavier to turn in chicanes.
By 2004 we had the manufacturers' bikes ready for evaluation – a tourer, a sportsbike equivalent to the R1, an adventure bike and another off-road bike. We thought the system added performance to all of them. They then took them away and as far as I know they still have them. Waiting to hear back was like waiting to hear from a girlfriend who has gone away. Unfortunately we heard very little.

What went wrong?
In 2004 we produced with Yamaha the WR450 2-Trac, with a run of 250 units. But demand was low because the price of such a limited run is high, and it was never homologated for the road. It was very frustrating to watch that bike fail. We continued to develop the technology for two years, until 2007, and had a new generation ready. But after the 2-Trac there wasn't the demand. If that bike had succeeded we would have two-wheel-drive Yamahas and perhaps from other manufacturers today.

...

A great read. I hope this catches on and leads to huge change in racing motorcycle ergonomics!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ May 19 2009, 11:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the next big thing is electric bikes anyway, so I guess a lot of developments get just a look over at present, especially if they are internal combustion engines.

Electric power will also allow easier development of 2wd systems so the idea may come back, but not in hydraulic form.


Edit: I just remembered another downfall with the 2wd Hydraulic system ..... they are very fuel inefficient, so in todays fuel efficient ideology, they probably will never come to fruition again.

Good to see that you read the article, then gave us your incredibly wonderful insight..... (before you butt-in and start to .......... nowhere did it mention that All engine power would be used to power front wheel, take note of this, better still read the article properly) Awww ...., you go and watch your electric bikes...

EDIT: Fukit, shot myself in the foot..couldn't resist replying to berrybullsht
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chockmoose @ May 20 2009, 09:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Good to see that you read the article, then gave us your incredibly wonderful insight..... (before you butt-in and start to .......... nowhere did it mention that All engine power would be used to power front wheel, take note of this, better still read the article properly) Awww ...., you go and watch your electric bikes...

EDIT: Fukit, shot myself in the foot..couldn't resist replying to berrybullsht
love it. that nickname should stick
<
<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chockmoose @ May 21 2009, 06:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Good to see that you read the article, then gave us your incredibly wonderful insight..... (before you butt-in and start to .......... nowhere did it mention that All engine power would be used to power front wheel, take note of this, better still read the article properly) Awww ...., you go and watch your electric bikes...

EDIT: Fukit, shot myself in the foot..couldn't resist replying to berrybullsht

Oh so you think its efficient enough to seriously take up as an option ?

Why did these systems never take off then?

I don't think you are just a gullible ......., you are also a ........
<


and I see Rog. has backed you up .... so ..... I rest my case
<
<
<
 
How long do you guys think this idea has been "going around the traps", anyway? Some of you are talking like its the first time you've seen it! It was out being reported on even before the WR250 hit the marketplace here. Think about that and then start asking yourself why. Then read and find out the limitations of the system.
 
I thought that a mind with an engineering background would have stopped and had a little daydream reflecting on the possibilities and conjure up theoretical solutions to limitations when pleasantly reminded of this system's existence ten years later. I know I did - felt a bit like a kid reading sci-fi and having a rush of ideas and conjectures, practical or not. Fuel injection for gasoline engines was around for almost 80 years before being universally adopted, so a new technology shelved for a decade means nothing - its called dormant... the useful applications are self evident and maybe all that is needed is a reexamination of the concept using current, developing or new innovations. New innovations are obviously not created by nay-sayers or negative closed-minded individuals.
<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ May 20 2009, 11:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh so you think its efficient enough to seriously take up as an option ?

Why did these systems never take off then?

I don't think you are just a gullible ......., you are also a ........
<


and I see Rog. has backed you up .... so ..... I rest my case
<
<
<


My apologies, I should not have replied to your usual ........, I had forgotten that you were the boards nominated engineering knowitall. I bow to your superior intellect and will henceforth only reply to you to stroke your ailing ego.



Aw fukit, since you obviously couldn't be arsed to read the article and decided to post your crap, let me point out your error - what you know and what you think you know are two very different things.

Edit:
You assume much, first you assume your knowledge is superior to others Ohlins included.
You assume that you know what I am thinking (see your reply)
Berry read the article with an open mind and then you will understand that there is some feasibility in what they try to achieve the figures that they quote give some inkling in how well the idea has progressed. You obviously have done well with modern education, you use the word 'think' a lot but have confused this with 'looking up information in books' I see a modern educated closed mind.
End edit.

Like the saying goes: Buy a teenager today while they still know everything. (OK you may not be a spotty oik, but certainly the attitude is spot on!)
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ May 21 2009, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I thought that a mind with an engineering background would have stopped and had a little daydream reflecting on the possibilities and conjure up theoretical solutions to limitations when pleasantly reminded of this system's existence ten years later. I know I did - felt a bit like a kid reading sci-fi and having a rush of ideas and conjectures, practical or not. Fuel injection for gasoline engines was around for almost 80 years before being universally adopted, so a new technology shelved for a decade means nothing - its called dormant... the useful applications are self evident and maybe all that is needed is a reexamination of the concept using current, developing or new innovations. New innovations are obviously not created by nay-sayers or negative closed-minded individuals.
<


Unfortunately I remember the main objections to the system at the time, and remember there had already been working 2wd systems out there, was the loss of overall power as Hydraulics are inherently very inefficient, hence why I prompted the "electric" future. I do see the inefficiency problem as dissappearing with elecrically powered systems. So as mentioned before we may see such systems revisited when electric bikes come in.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chockmoose @ May 21 2009, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My apologies, I should not have replied to your usual ........, I had forgotten that you were the boards nominated engineering knowitall. I bow to your superior intellect and will henceforth only reply to you to stroke your ailing ego.



Aw fukit, since you obviously couldn't be arsed to read the article and decided to post your crap, let me point out your error - what you know and what you think you know are two very different things.

Edit:
You assume much, first you assume your knowledge is superior to others Ohlins included.
You assume that you know what I am thinking (see your reply)
Berry read the article with an open mind and then you will understand that there is some feasibility in what they try to achieve the figures that they quote give some inkling in how well the idea has progressed. You obviously have done well with modern education, you use the word 'think' a lot but have confused this with 'looking up information in books' I see a modern educated closed mind.
End edit.

Like the saying goes: Buy a teenager today while they still know everything. (OK you may not be a spotty oik, but certainly the attitude is spot on!)

Well I'm not assuming my knowledge is superior to yours! its patently obvious to me .... you are just a magazine reading ......... One article and your sold
<
what a prick.

Find a vogue, or some other of your reference magazines , and I bet even they will have a few articles for you to finally realize Hydraulics are very inefficient for dynamic work. They get better the closer they approach a static load situation. Unfortunately I put up a valid point with the possible revisitation to these systems and your instantly act like a ........ and belittle whatever I say .... it even seems without reading what I said. So what is your argument anyway? are you saying we should revisit such systems even when they failed on several accounts in the past? What is your point?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ May 21 2009, 10:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well I'm not assuming my knowledge is superior to yours! its patently obvious to me .... you are just a magazine reading ......... One article and your sold
<
what a prick.

Find a vogue, or some other of your reference magazines , and I bet even they will have a few articles for you to finally realize Hydraulics are very inefficient for dynamic work. They get better the closer they approach a static load situation. Unfortunately I put up a valid point with the possible revisitation to these systems and your instantly act like a ........ and belittle whatever I say .... it even seems without reading what I said. So what is your argument anyway? are you saying we should revisit such systems even when they failed on several accounts in the past? What is your point?

Thank you for your asinine insight, truly berrybullshitter you KNOW sweet FA.
It is obvious that if anyone disagrees with your 'knowledge' you start slinging .... around.

Well i guess berrybullshitter is just a common wannabe ......... mechanic.

I do not feel the need to explain all to you as you already know it! But let me be honest, I see that you know it all from reading books, there is no indication of empirical experience.
Consider this the last time that I bother to read/reply to your crap...go back to your books berry so that you can stun us with your incredible electric bike... oh and by the way you want to see a real ........?






























look in the mirror .......
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chockmoose @ May 21 2009, 08:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thank you for your asinine insight, truly berrybullshitter you KNOW sweet FA.
It is obvious that if anyone disagrees with your 'knowledge' you start slinging .... around.

Ok again ..... what do you actually disagree with in what I said? ..... though I suspect as per your answer you don't care about content you just get on and have a sook at me
<


SO come on put two words together and tell me what you disagree with what I said? and why?
 

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